A recent facination with hard drugs

[JBroll]

Requiem For A Dream

Fear And Loathing in Las Vegas

Jeff

 

[Harry Hughes]

Basically the last two posts, massive +1.

 

[EerieVon]

I'm all for the legalization of naturally occurring drugs, things that aren't chemically based, or enhanced. When I say naturally occurring I mean things like marijuana, hash, and mushrooms. When I say chemically based or enhanced that is things like meth, coke, pcp, lcd, etc. Generally speaking, naturally occurring drugs do the same amount or less damage to a person physically as alcohol does. And as far as psychological damages, in my opinion, if done in moderation, the chances for long term psychological damage or dependency is limited.

Now, do I currently do drugs? No, and yes I have seen people that have gone to extremes and messed up their lives. But those people were just as likely to do that with alcohol as they were with drugs. Can drugs enhance some people to perform better in whatever given situation? Sure it can, just like it can hinder some other people

 

[JBroll]

Your 'generally speaking' needs quite a significant citation. Further, with your (uncited) claim that 'naturally occurring drugs do the same amount or less damage to a person physically as alcohol does', I have to wonder if 'artificial' drugs *don't* - countless fully 'artificial' substances are essential to modern medicine and do even less damage.

This absurd attitude that somehow everything people do that ants or penguins don't is 'unnatural' or 'fake' needs to die as quickly as possible - we are perfectly natural, and as a result everything we *do* is natural (unless 'natural' nuts have an entirely different dictionary that says otherwise), and there are far bigger factors in the possible harm done by a substance than whether or not it's 'natural', so that distinction is very hard to justify.

Jeff

 

[Lowberg]

lmao

http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?t=25186

 

[26]

Fear And Loathing in Las Vegas

Jeff

Lewis Carrol/Alice in Wonderland

still amused how many people watching the Disney film without knowing its roots, ha ha

 

[JBroll]

Carroll wasn't actually into the drugs that myth claims - his disconnection from reality stems more from being a logician by profession for quite some time.

Jeff

 

[26]

Carroll wasn't actually into the drugs that myth claims - his disconnection from reality stems more from being a logician by profession for quite some time.

Jeff

I think its obvious (eating a mushroom and shrink for example). It wasn't LSD as the myth claims, but probably Psylocibine or something.

 

[JBroll]

It's only obvious under the conditions that (1) you're assuming a drug connection from the start (psilocybin or otherwise) and (2) you've never dealt with a logician. Given that my claim is supported by evidence and yours isn't, I'm going to have to stand by my statement.

Jeff

 

[26]

Given that my claim is supported by evidence and yours isn't, I'm going to have to stand by my statement.

Jeff

"What evidence?"
(Kurt Gödel)

jk

 

[26]

ups double post

 

[JBroll]

Why did Kurt Gödel cross the road?
So that this joke wouldn't work.

Jeff

 

[Erkan]

You're leaving out quite a bit of 'It works both ways' with human relationships. If someone is abusive, needy, or generally useless and demands too much of you, you cut them off. If someone completely changes for the worse and you can't stand being around them anymore, you cut them off. Drugs or no drugs, you hold the power to determine who is part of your life and who isn't.

Yeah you are right about that.

 

[JBroll]

People occasionally look at me funny for exercising that power and being direct about it, but that I find that preferable to trying to dictate others' behaviors to suit my needs. I see no point in litigating or legislating when simply taking control of my own life does the job.

Jeff

 

[roy22341]

I think when it comes to hard drugs such as heroin and cocaine, a lot of the problem lies in the amount of money it costs the taxpayer per year. You cannot deny that heroin and cocaine abuse causes a rise in crime, violence and medical expenses that are covered by taxpayers. Add into that the amount of government money spent on rehabilitation and incarceration and you're dealing with a significant sum of money. In 1996 it was estimated that heroin addiction cost the U.S. nearly $22 billion dollars.

Add to that the human cost of innocent people killed in drug deals gone wrong, drive by shootings, accidents involving people under the influence driving vehicles, break ins, robberies, stabbings, shootings, rapes and murders and I think (personally) that hard drug use (I'm not talking about marijuana) goes beyond personal choice and becomes a burden and a danger to society in general. If I decide to go out and get completely drunk and try to drive home, that is a personal choice - chances are I'll make it home okay. But if I kill your brother, sister, husband or wife, it changes the story, doesn't it? Hard drug use affects far more than just the drug user and the people close to them.

Jeff, I respect your opinion and have seldom read any of your posts and disagreed with you, however, this time I must respectfully disagree. Simply because you can cite a handful examples of people who have been successful and made significant contributions to science and society, does not necessarily mean that drugs are not generally bad. Taking a small sample and extrapolating that over a population of drug users and labeling it as acceptable is absurd. For each hard drug user you cite that has contributed to society, there are hundred of people who have had their lives changed forever by hard drug abusers. Freedom of personal choice is overridden when the consequences of that choice more often than not leads to a general decline in standard of living for everyone.

You can say that is entirely possible for people to use drugs without trampling over others' rights. I agree that it is possible. However, it is unlikely to the point of absurdity. It is entirely possible for all people to coexist peacefully on earth. That does not by any means negate the necessity for laws to exist and law enforcement to enforce them.

I despise government regulation in my daily life, so in the drug sense I suppose I am hypocritical. However, I feel hard drugs should be an exception due to the MATHEMATICAL STATISTICS that overwhelmingly show that heavy drug use has a large negative impact on all of society. One may not see it if they live in a privileged neighborhood or far out in the country, but it is still there.

Also, just to point out, Hitler was very likely a meth addict. Joe McCarthy was very likely a heroin addict. Citing this as a reason that drugs should be illegal would be patently absurd. And likewise, it is absurd to cite successful drug addicts as reason that drugs shouldn't be illegal is equally absurd.

Just my opinion.

 

[Line666]

I think when it comes to hard drugs such as heroin and cocaine, a lot of the problem lies in the amount of money it costs the taxpayer per year. You cannot deny that heroin and cocaine abuse causes a rise in crime, violence and medical expenses that are covered by taxpayers. Add into that the amount of government money spent on rehabilitation and incarceration and you're dealing with a significant sum of money. In 1996 it was estimated that heroin addiction cost the U.S. nearly $22 billion dollars.

The indirect effects of drug *legislation* can be far stronger than the indirect effects of drugs.

Jeff

.

 

[roy22341]

.

The MEDSTAT estimates that about 24% of this estimate (the particular estimate I quoted is already 13 years old) are related to criminal activities, including the cost of incarceration, policing, legal adjudication, and the cost to crime victims. So the other 76%, or roughly $16.5 billion is related to health care costs, lost productivity, rehabilitation, etc. etc. This is just heroin. Doesn't include coke, meth, crack, or any other drugs. Just heroin. This ignores the human cost of extreme poverty.

I think in an ideal world completely legalizing all drugs would work just fine. I think that this just assumes a level of responsibility that Americans, and people all over the world have shown they cannot handle.

 

[Line666]

The MEDSTAT estimates that about 24% of this estimate (the particular estimate I quoted is already 13 years old) are related to criminal activities, including the cost of incarceration, policing, legal adjudication, and the cost to crime victims. So the other 76%, or roughly $16.5 billion is related to health care costs, lost productivity, rehabilitation, etc. etc. This is just heroin. Doesn't include coke, meth, crack, or any other drugs. Just heroin. This ignores the human cost of extreme poverty.

I think in an ideal world completely legalizing all drugs would work just fine. I think that this just assumes a level of responsibility that Americans, and people all over the world have shown they cannot handle.

Obesity costs you guys $75bn, you want to live in a world where pies are banned because some people can't consume them responsibly? They obviously don't have the responsibility to handle what they eat either, we should ban everything but salad.

And actually, the Medstat report says for heroin that:

Preliminary estimates indicate that the societal costs of heroin addiction to the United States in 1996 might range from $15 billion to $20 billion. Approximately 40 percent of these costs are due to the medical complications of heroin addiction, primarily treatment for HIV/AIDS and psychiatric comorbidities. Another 40 percent of the total costs are related to criminal activities

The biggest medical problem ie Aids is because junkies are using dirty needles, in a system where the government handed out the heroin and needles this wouldn't be a problem because the needles would be clean. The rest is crime because of the expense or heroin and the dealers themselves being stopped, in a world of legalised drugs again this would not be an issue because organised crime would not have any foothold on the drugs market.

 

[Metaltastic]

Man, what the fuck, why bother with hard shit - yesterday I smoked like 4 blunts (a record for me, like I said, I'm still inexperienced ) over the course of a night with my old college roommates and some other dudes, and whoooo lawdy was that more than enough!

 

[ParsonsMatt]

People occasionally look at me funny for exercising that power and being direct about it, but that I find that preferable to trying to dictate others' behaviors to suit my needs. I see no point in litigating or legislating when simply taking control of my own life does the job.

Jeff

One of these days, I am going to look through your posts and try to find something I disagree with.