Advice on learning a foreign language?

[LunaTEKKE]

I had a short stay (2 nights) in Vienna on my recent trip to Europe, and I would like to return for an extended visit sometime in the next couple of years.

I learned a few important phrases (hello, goodbye, please, thank you, “how much does it cost?”, “I would like a glass of wine”, and “where are the bathrooms?”) for this last trip…however, I would like to be more competent with the language on my next trip. I know that the dialect is a little different in each German-speaking country, but I assume that I can get by anywhere with “High German.”

I just started using the “Living Language” book and CDs. I have heard rave reviews of the Rosetta Stone CD-ROMs and am considering making that investment, but DAMN…they are expensive!! Has anyone had experience with using their products?

Also, any other advice in general on learning a foreign language would be appreciated. I do know some Spanish, but I started studying that in high school and college...and I think I had a few more brain cells then.

 

[booB]

“I would like a glass of wine”, and “where are the bathrooms?&#8221

Alcoholic!!!

I'm not fluent in any second language, but I have learned a bunch of Spanish and a little Arabic. Here are some tips that have worked for me: a) Practice, practice, practice! You won't retain it if you don't use it -- a lesson I've learned, much to my chagrin, over the years I've tried to become fluent in Spanish. b) When learning/using a second language, it's not enough to memorize words or phrases. You really need to "think" in that language in order to really catch on. Don't learn, for example, that "uno" means "one, "dos" means "two", etc. Just count in Spanish (or German, in your case). Try to imagine how entire conversations would go in another language, and fill in vocabulary holes, when necessary, from a dictionary. c) Try to learn the rules of grammar; patterns make it a lot easier to learn pretty much anything.

 

[jaimek]

Yes, high German will be understood pretty much anywhere you go in the German-speaking world, but more often than not, the locals will want to practice their English on you! (if they're under 40-50 years old, chances are they speak English. 50+ and it's a little dicier. They ALWAYS appreciate the effort, though, even if they giggle a little at your accent or your syntax. I chatted with the Dreamscape guys at PP5 (?) auf-very-rusty-Deutsch and they were so thrilled, lol.

Rosetta Stone is the best of the bunch for software-based language learning, but I found it's not entirely useful for travel, because it starts you out with a child's vocabulary and syntax (ie, none of the important phrases you need to get around town), and I found it frustrating that there wasn't a grammar reference. Frex, obviously esta and estoy are the same verb, but there's nothing that explains why you would use one or the other. No conjugation, either. But that's how it's advertised: you learn the way a child learns, by associating images and words together. It's useful for building up a basic vocabulary, but my needs are a little more demanding.

Immersion has always worked best for me - I found that my German comprehension improved significantly when I was constantly surrounded by the language in active use. If you can't take a class between now and the time you plan to travel, find a willing friend who speaks German and practice with them, or a German-speaking forum that's friendly to learners (on Livejournal, for example). Buy children's books in German and read those. (Me, I went for the 800 page novel that I've read a zillion times in English. Takes me ten minutes to get through a page!) There's also a variety of websites out there that are varying degrees of usefulness, like Deutsche Welle.

What usually gets me are the idioms and the contractions.


(This is actually somewhat relevant to me as I've been trying to brush up on my German *and* teach myself a little Dutch in advance of ProgPower Europe in October. That Dutch G is tough, though. hehe.)

 

[AngraRULES]

Rosetta Stone is amazing. That's probably the best software out there.

 

[Diamond45]

I concur with all the above posts. Rosetta Stone from what I hear by people who have used it is probably one of the best software packages out there to learn a foreign language.

Boob is right - the best way to learn a language is to actually converse in it, even if it's to the TV or the mirror.

I really wish I remembered the French that I learned 20 years ago... but if you don't use it you lose it! Ugh!

Good luck learning a foreign language.

 

[johan68]

To be totally immersed in the language and to be forced to speak it works every time. I'm rather fluent in 4 languages and speak another 2-3 decently. All from spending a lot of time in the various countries.

Rosetta Stone seems to work well for learning a language from a distance. My daughters have learned Spanish rather well from using it. They get it free from school which is a benefit as I understand it is expensive.

In other words.... If you want to learn German... Move to Germany (Or Austria for that matter), suffer for a while then all of a sudden you'll find yourself knowing it perfect .

If you want to learn Swedish.... Just contact me and I'll have you fluent in 6 weeks (for a small fee ).

 

[Yippee38]

Try this: http://fsi-language-courses.com/

 

[Viridian Ice]

I'm a translator by trade, speak a few languages and I totally agree with the other guys, immersion will do it best but there's a lot of ways you can get a bit of immersion therapy at home:

- Watch cartoons (especially ones you know) in that language. If you have cable TV you might find some channels in that language, if not there's Ebay.
- Read comics in that language (you'll get a bit of visual help that way) or magazines about a topic you're interested in, or even simple books for kids.
- Stick little notes on the objects round your house. You'll soon know the words for cupboard, wall, door etc.
- Try to learn as many nouns as possible, plus numbers. My parents don't speak much French right now but I was really chuffed to hear my dad ask for" 2 plasterboard please" at a DIY shop the other day!
- Practice your pronunciation by reading out loud as much as possible. Doesn't matter if you don't understand it all right now, just be strict with going over it. Pretend you're 'acting' that nationality and be a bit dramatic. Weirdly one of my ex's had fantastic German pronunciation when he was imitating 'Allo Allo'!
-Talk to yourself (probably best when nobody's around). Use what you know and try to talk about the weather, describe your surroundings, tell a story. One of the important things about using a language is to find ways to say what you want, when you haven't got all the words to say it. A lot of the time you need to find ways round your 'word holes'. If you can't say "I've got a migraine" you might be able to say "My head is sick" and get an aspirin all the same. Eventually you'll fill in the holes, but you'll often still be looking for ways round.

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

[freakchylde]

Rosetta Stone is good, but it has its weak points (as Jaime stated). For German, depending on where you live, you can check out the Goethe Institut, they offer classes and conversation hours that you can attend for minimal fees. If you live near a big city, hit up the German Consulate, they'll be able to hook you up, too. The best suggestion was getting shows and music in the language you want to learn, listen to it over and over, practice speaking the lines as they come up. If you get movies on DVD, you can set it to have English subtitles to clue you in on things.

BTW, Jaime, I have a couple of friends that speak Dutch, one friend as a second language and the other a native speaker, if you'd like me to hook you up with them.

 

[Pellaz]

The best suggestion was getting shows and music in the language you want to learn, listen to it over and over, practice speaking the lines as they come up. If you get movies on DVD, you can set it to have English subtitles to clue you in on things.

When I was over in Holland for PP Europe 1, I noticed how amazingly well-versed in English the Dutch, Belgians and Swedes were, and how the Germans and French lagged behind. "Oh, there's a good reason for that," I was told by some people there. "In Germany and France, American movies are overdubbed in their languages, but in most of the rest of Europe, American movies are shown with subtitles. So, we get free lessons in spoken English alll the time!"
So, watching anything in your target language with good subtitles really is a good idea.

 

[johan68]

When I was over in Holland for PP Europe 1, I noticed how amazingly well-versed in English the Dutch, Belgians and Swedes were, and how the Germans and French lagged behind. "Oh, there's a good reason for that," I was told by some people there. "In Germany and France, American movies are overdubbed in their languages, but in most of the rest of Europe, American movies are shown with subtitles. So, we get free lessons in spoken English alll the time!"
So, watching anything in your target language with good subtitles really is a good idea.

Very, very true. "We" in Sweden get massive amounts of English, American and German films and tv shows all the time never dubbed. Always in the original language with subs. I totally agree that you learn a lot from listening to the original language while reading it in your native tongue. Now when I live in the U.S I get a lot of Swedish films with English subs, and that has been a huge help in the Mrs. learning Swedish.

Don't want her learn too much though... Me and the kids still have to be able to talk shite about her behind her back....

By the way.... I have 2 daughters, born in the U.S. I ALWAYS speak Swedish to them and they have become perfectly bilingual now.

 

[Yippee38]

By the way.... I have 2 daughters, born in the U.S. I ALWAYS speak Swedish to them and they have become perfectly bilingual now.

That's very cool.

 

[Rick Pierpont]

Agreed! In high school my plan was to become a translator and took three years of German and did great, but of course with non-use, much has been lost. By my third year, we were reading German books and answering questions just as you would do in an English Lit class. I also had a teacher from Germany which helped with developing a good accent (I was fairly convincing). Immersion is clearly king!

6 years after HS, I found myself living in Belgium for three months for work. For the first two months, I lived in Brussels and had to learn enough French to eat, shop, etc... the last month, I lived in Antwerpen were Dutch is king. However, I worked in a predominantly Dutch-speaking area the entire time and thus concentrated on that. By the time I was leaving I was fooling the locals and had them asking where I was from (no avoiding an accent completely), but I was getting around very well! I learned by listening all the time, asking questions, and reading. Of course, since I was living there I had plenty of time to practice too! Something I don't get much of here. Now 16 years later, I still remember quite a bit of Dutch and that was from just 3 months! Not as much as I'd like, but more than I'd expect.

BTW Jaime, since you know German and English, I think you will pick up Dutch easier than you think. I find that it lands about halfway between both languages.

So go get a good German-English-German dictionary, find a good resource for the grammar rules (don't let them overwhelm you), watch TV, read websites, books etc... and try to practice on as many as you can. An adult education center may offer German classes and would be highly recommended to get you over the initial learning hump.

Good Luck!

 

[LunaTEKKE]

“Danke sehr” to everyone for the responses! Unfortunately, immersion is not an option right now…but thanks to y’all, I have plenty of great resources and suggestions!

@jaimek – You touched on my biggest concern with Rosetta Stone…I think I will do better if I can get a basic understanding of grammatical structure. Maybe I will end up using RS in conjunction with the Living Language book/CDs that I have, which has good information on verb conjugations, parts of speech, etc.. Best of luck with the Dutch!

@booB & Diamond45 – Yep, I know about the “use it or lose it” phenomenon from studying Spanish. It’s mostly been “lose it” for me over the last few years!

@johan68 – I think my little brain will best handle one language at a time…but thanks for the offer! By the way, tell your daughters to make use of the free Rosetta Stone software as much as they can before heading into the “real” world! There are 3 volumes to the German series, and it’s about $250 just for the first one!

@Viridian Ice – Thanks for the expert advice! Sounds like a very cool job.

 

[Rick Pierpont]

“Danke sehr” to everyone for the responses! Unfortunately, immersion is not an option right now…but thanks to y’all, I have plenty of great resources and suggestions!

@jaimek – You touched on my biggest concern with Rosetta Stone…I think I will do better if I can get a basic understanding of grammatical structure. Maybe I will end up using RS in conjunction with the Living Language book/CDs that I have, which has good information on verb conjugations, parts of speech, etc.. Best of luck with the Dutch!

@booB & Diamond45 – Yep, I know about the “use it or lose it” phenomenon from studying Spanish. It’s mostly been “lose it” for me over the last few years!

@johan68 – I think my little brain will best handle one language at a time…but thanks for the offer! By the way, tell your daughters to make use of the free Rosetta Stone software as much as they can before heading into the “real” world! There are 3 volumes to the German series, and it’s about $250 just for the first one!

@Viridian Ice – Thanks for the expert advice! Sounds like a very cool job.

You don't have to go there to get the immersion. ;-) You will be able to achieve some level of immersion from listening to German TV and movies as well as reading books, magazines, web sites (which are FREE!!). It sounds like you have a plan with the Living Language stuff with the option of also using the Rosetta Stone stuff. Use them in conjunction with the "local immersion" and you will be in decent shape! Tschuß!!

 

[jaimek]

BTW Jaime, since you know German and English, I think you will pick up Dutch easier than you think. I find that it lands about halfway between both languages.

Yeah, there's enough similarities that I haven't had any great difficulty picking it up - it's actually *easier* than German in that it doesn't have a dozen cases!

Oh, that's another thing: grammar. A solid grip on grammar makes your life SO much easier, especially with German. If you know when to use "who" and when to use "whom," for example, that's a major leg up in dealing with the accusative/dative/genitive/etc cases. A variety of prepositions are also a handy thing to know - having a noun and a verb is of relatively little use if you can't string 'em together.

English is a very imprecise (lazy!) language - you can often use the same verb to mean a great many different things - to do, to take, to go, etc, and learning other languages requires you to be a lot more specific. You don't "take" the bus, you "ride" the bus. You don't "take" the car, you "drive" the car. I think it was boB who suggested that you try to think in that language rather than think in English and then attempt to translate - it'll screw you up. I get frustrated sometimes because I think in far more complex English than my limited German vocabulary and grammar will support, and I have a hard time dumbing it down so I can say what I want to say.

 

[lady_space]

Very, very true. "We" in Sweden get massive amounts of English, American and German films and tv shows all the time never dubbed. Always in the original language with subs. I totally agree that you learn a lot from listening to the original language while reading it in your native tongue. Now when I live in the U.S I get a lot of Swedish films with English subs, and that has been a huge help in the Mrs. learning Swedish.

We've been watching Battlestar Galactica with Swedish subtitles, and it has helped me pick up a lot more Swedish. (It's also very distracting, though, so we turned them off finally.) It gives me context, so it's not just learning how to say "good hunting", it's remembering that Starbuck said it and the situation is was in.

Anything that has English paired up with the FL is probably going to be good--it also helps if you also have a speaker of that language, as things are often not word-for-word translations, but IMO that's good since things don't translate precisely anyway (they seem to always want to use 'javla' even for 'damn' or 'shit' :Smug, so I'm at an advantage there.

Like Jaime said, based on my experience, most Germans are going to speak English, like most Swedes do, but they are usually very helpful and understanding when you're trying to practice their language. Don't be embarassed or afraid to screw up--I called my stepdaughter "shit nose" instead of "sweet nose" and it's now our little joke. Also, she's right in that Austrians and Southern Germans do have a different dialect but "high" German should take you everywhere.

Good luck! Or, viel gluck IIRC!

Shaye

 

[LunaTEKKE]

Tschuß!!

Ah, thanks for the reminder – gotta brush up on those keyboard shortcuts!

If you know when to use "who" and when to use "whom," for example, that's a major leg up in dealing with the accusative/dative/genitive/etc cases.

GAAAAA...that's way over my head! I'm still stressing out that I can't just add an "s" to form plurals in German. It's like having to memorize *twice* the vocabulary!

Don't be embarassed or afraid to screw up--I called my stepdaughter "shit nose" instead of "sweet nose" and it's now our little joke.

LOL – that is just too funny! Thanks for the reminder that the world won’t stop spinning if I should make a mistake. When I used to participate in Spanish Language conversational groups, I would try to get what I wanted to say PERFECT in my head before actually speaking up...but by the time that happened, everyone else had moved on to a different topic.

Oh, and I did finally spring for the Rosetta Stone software – I ordered it through Barnes & Noble, so at least I got a member discount. I’ll have to post a review when it arrives!

 

[jaimek]

Oh, and I did finally spring for the Rosetta Stone software – I ordered it through Barnes & Noble, so at least I got a member discount. I’ll have to post a review when it arrives!

I played with the new version a little bit recently (I'd only tried v2 before) and they've improved on it quite a bit except for the speaking section, and I think that's more a fault either of my microphone or the way the program processes audio input. I did the same lesson three times with a simple sentence that I know I'm saying correctly, and two out of the three times it just refused to acknowledge more than one or two out of four words. The third time (which was actually the 2nd attempt) was perfect. I ran into this with most of the speaking sections. Frustrating.

It's not quite so child-simple as it was, either; they've ramped up the difficulty a little.