Alternative Metal: Does it exist or not?

[Burzum_Maiden]

So I've seen many debates over the internet in the past about whether alternative metal exists or not, and I was curious as to what you guys think. Does it exist as a genre? Do bands like Rage Against the Machine, Soundgarden, Jane's Addiction, Alice in Chains, Faith No More and Tool belong in metal? (I can see people making the argument that AIC and Soundgarden are grunge, but I'll include that in the alternative metal genre as bands like AIC, Soundgarden and Melvins have clear metal influences.) I have noticed that a lot of Alt. metal bands have other characteristics e.g. Melvins have punk and sludge influences, Tool has prog influences, etc. so do these bands belong in other places? Alt. metal as I see it doesn't appear to have a specific set of characteristics like other genres of metal do.
So does it belong or not? I really have no idea, and don't really care as I'll enjoy these bands regardless, but I am curious to know what you all think.

Also, I put this thread here because I had no idea where it belongs. It's a debate as to whether a genre exists or not so maybe it belongs in non-metal? That was my logic, but feel free to move it elsewhere.

 

[CiG]

I personally don't consider it to be a legitimate style of heavy metal, same with nu-metal, to me it's just rock music with varying degrees of metal influence.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

Fair enough, I'm not convinced either way though. More opinions would be good. I think it's not a cohesive style; as I mentioned, bands typically classified as alternative metal have very little in common with each other (there are some things, but it's somewhat indescribable), so maybe it's a concept or a feeling rather than a genre, like experimental music? I still don't know what I'd call it.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

To expand on what I just said a bit, I think maybe it could be a concept or philosophy rather than a genre with a defined sound. Similarly to prog rock/metal, the bands have completely different sounds but seem to be tied together by a certain ideology or philosophy, in alt. metal's case that philosophy seems to be a focus on functional musicianship and lyrics focused on darker themes e.g. death, loss, addiction, suicide, mental illness etc. So maybe that's what defines it as a genre?
And to add to it not being metal as such, I have seen the term "hard alternative" being thrown around. Maybe that's a better term? It sounds like a far broader term as well.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Alternative Metal is a term made up by Wikipedia users as far as I can tell. Back in the nineties when all those bands happened, it was just called Alternative music. Nu-metal, on the other hand, was/is an actual genre. Anyone who thinks the first two Korn albums (which pioneered the genre) are rock with metal influence is deluding themselves.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

As much as I dislike Korn and other nu metal bands, I'd have to agree. It is metal, but not the same old-school metal many people think of when they think of metal.
As far as alt metal being a Wikipedia article and nothing more, you may be right there. It doesn't seem consistent enough to be its own genre, although I do still think the bands generally classified as alternative metal have a certain ideology in common.

 

[CiG]

I hear no connection to metal on any Korn album, moaning about old schoolers doesn't prove anything. Show me where Korn is influenced by metal besides some kind of generic "heaviness."

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

I'm not sure how I was moaning about old-schoolers, but okay then.
I cannot speak about their music too much as I don't listen to them, but listening to Jonathan Davis talk about his influences in the Metal Evolution series, it definitely sounds as if they have metal influences. From what I've heard of their material, there is a definite metal influence, but among many other styles so it does get diluted a bit. I dunno, it's all up to interpretation.

 

[CiG]

I don't think it's all up to interpretation, I think there are things you can observe that can show objectively whether something is metal or not.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

Sort of, but music is 100% subjective. I see them as metal, but others like you don't. Their music is quite diverse, which is part of the nu-metal genre; it was a genre that embraced more than just metal. It was influenced by Gothic music, industrial, hip-hop, maybe a teeny bit of punk, among others. I think this is the reason some people don't consider them to be metal.

 

[CiG]

No, music quality is 100% subjective, you can't subjectively argue that Venom play folk rock.

I agree with your description of the elements in nu-metal and would even be willing to grant you the claim that metal is an influence in their music, what you're doing however is giving more weight to the metal influence in their music, whereas I'm giving much more weight to the rest. Especially rap and rock.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

I wouldn't give more weight to the metal influence at all, so sorry if it seemed that way.

 

[CiG]

That is what you're doing by way of claiming that they're a metal band.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

I suppose, but that's not denying any of their other influences. I'm not refusing to admit that they don't have other influences of equal importance (because clearly they do), but I didn't mention them. That's all.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Show me where Korn is influenced by metal besides some kind of generic "heaviness."

Riffs (not trad in any way, more groove metal than anything), vocals, guitar tone, drumming, general musical aesthetic (there's nothing 'rock' about it), aggression. And yeah heaviness. Which admittedly is a big part.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

They take from rock in that their lyrical themes are more introspective than a lot of metal. And I agree the riffs are more from groove metal than traditional metal; Jonathan Davis is a huge fan of Pantera.

 

[CiG]

Riffs (not trad in any way, more groove metal than anything), vocals, guitar tone, drumming, general musical aesthetic (there's nothing 'rock' about it), aggression. And yeah heaviness. Which admittedly is a big part.

That's very vague. Also vocals are possibly the most non-metal part.

 

[Burzum_Maiden]

The vocals are kind of metal in that they are aggressive, although you could make the argument that Dave Grohl has an aggressive vocal style as well, and he's not exactly a metal musician. So they are and they aren't. Nu metal is such as difficult style to pull apart because of the fact that it is so many genres rolled into one.

 

[Satanstoenail]

That's very vague. Also vocals are possibly the most non-metal part.

What would you like? Samples of riffs with comparisons? I don't have time and you'll just disagree with me anyway.

 

[CiG]

You don't know that, I'm very open to being proven wrong. But yes, I'd prefer comparisons.