Any one here religious?

[TheWinterSnow]

I see the Bible as a negative book. With a vengeful, jealous, genocidal, childish asshole who kills and punishes his own creation because he couldn't get shit right in the first place. The dude is just plain crazy. The book contains every atrocity the human mind can think of. IMO the book is disgusting. uke:

You are definitely taking it the wrong way. yes by all means it shows how selfish god is, how vengeful and how imperfect he is, and for that, there is a lesson that can be learned from it.

I have been wanting to post this though:

 

[James Murphy]

Unknown, unknowable, and indifference are all three different concepts that can coincide or be dependent of each other. For example if you say, "proof of god is unknown" or, "I believe that the proof of a god will always be unknowable", that is the basic two extreme views of agnosticism. However saying "I don't give a shit if there is a god" is not agnosticism. Just because you say "proof of god is unknown" does not mean that you don't care to find out if any god is real.

yeah... exactly what i said. thanks for repeating it for me in a different form.

 

[SocialNumb]

I'm with James. It should be considered child abuse.

 

[STINNETT]

I see the Bible as a negative book. With a vengeful, jealous, genocidal, childish asshole who kills and punishes his own creation because he couldn't get shit right in the first place. The dude is just plain crazy. The book contains every atrocity the human mind can think of. IMO the book is disgusting. uke:

Same here.

No matter how "metaphorically" I try to interpret it, I still find it to be shockingly immoral and barbaric. And not just the Old Testament.

Vicarious redemption? The central tenet of the Christian faith? In my opinion it is totally immoral and repulsive. uke:

Sure there are some warm and fuzzy passages here and there, but all such things can be garnered independantly, and much more directly from other sources - free of the cumbersome obfuscation resulting from centuries of twisting interpretations and revision.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

you definitely haven't read much of the bible.... and you really should, especially the old testament, but the new testament as well. in no way, shape, or form are they books for teaching morality to children or anyone else.

within the pages of the bible lie the warrants for slavery, rape, murder, genocide, bigamy, incest, homophobia, misogyny, and every other manner of reprehensible behavior... and that's just the stuff given specific divine issuance.

even with the new testament, in which we get for the first time... with "gentle jesus, meek and mild"... the threat of hell and eternity in it, we have all manner of appalling behavior and hate.

no no, don't you fool yourself that the bible is an iconographic source of morality. it's certainly not, and teaching it's contents to children should be considered child abuse.

I did not say, everything all the characters do is morally correct, its actually quite the opposite, and it goes like this: read the book, do the opposite of what everyone does in the book. What I am saying is that the bible is a great mirror of todays society however it is showing it under a different perspective. In my point of view, it has a way to pull a reader out of its comfort zone and see how fucked up the book/story/those times were, however when you look back to society today you find very quickly that NOTHING has changed. That can be more than enough incentive to live a better life after knowing how fucked up things can be if you don;t go out to make a difference.

Stop looking at the situation as a "glass half empty" situation and take it for a literal face value and compare it to todays society and see what it doesn't teach you.

I'm with James. It should be considered child abuse.

Don't get me wrong, Christian/Catholic families that force their children to read the book, and to go to bible school/camp and all that jazz should be charged with child abuse. You don't force your child to read and be "educated" with such traumatizing dogma. Parents that do that shit should be shot.

 

[James Murphy]

Same here.

No matter how "metaphorically" I try to interpret it, I still find it to be shockingly immoral and barbaric. And not just the Old Testament.

Vicarious redemption? The central tenet of the Christian faith? In my opinion it is totally immoral and repulsive. uke:

Sure there are some warm and fuzzy passages here and there, but all such things can be garnered independantly, and much more directly from other sources - free of the cumbersome obfuscation resulting from centuries of twisting interpretations and revision.

yep.... why should we be trying to find our morality in the unknown authorship, poor translations, and often deliberately altered/falsified texts of bronze age middle east mythology anyway?

 

[SocialNumb]

You are definitely taking it the wrong way. yes by all means it shows how selfish god is, how vengeful and how imperfect he is, and for that, there is a lesson that can be learned from it.

I don't think so. Yes, if I want to ignore every vile thing in it and stick to the nice bits that are few and far between, sure. I could pull out something positive. 99% of time when I ask a Christian how they feel about "God" killing 35 million people and the devil only killing 10, they ignore it and or change the subject. When I do get an answer, it's always "because we all deserve to die".

That's just crazy.

Edit: I think science can better tell us where are morals come from.

 

[slashvanyoung]

You are definitely taking it the wrong way. yes by all means it shows how selfish god is, how vengeful and how imperfect he is, and for that, there is a lesson that can be learned from it.

Nice turnaround!

 

[James Murphy]

I did not say, everything all the characters do is morally correct, its actually quite the opposite, and it goes like this: read the book, do the opposite of what everyone does in the book. What I am saying is that the bible is a great mirror of todays society however it is showing it under a different perspective. In my point of view, it has a way to pull a reader out of its comfort zone and see how fucked up the book/story/those times were, however when you look back to society today you find very quickly that NOTHING has changed. That can be more than enough incentive to live a better life after knowing how fucked up things can be if you don;t go out to make a difference.

Stop looking at the situation as a "glass half empty" situation and take it for a literal face value and compare it to todays society and see what it doesn't teach you.

well i have read bible, though not in full since my early teens...and even then i was dumbstruck by the patent falsehood of it.... and anyway i would never recommend someone to read it to learn "what not to do"... anymore than i'd tell someone to read a book on astrology to learn how not to do astronomy, or a book on alchemy to learn how not to do chemistry.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

I don't think so. Yes, if I want to ignore every vile thing in it and stick to the nice bits that are few and far between, sure. I could pull out something positive. 99% of time when I ask a Christian how they feel about "God" killing 35 million people and the devil only killing 10, they ignore it and or change the subject. When I do get an answer, it's always "because we all deserve to die".

That's just crazy.

Edit: I think science can better tell us where are morals come from.

well i have read bible, though not in full since my early teens...and even then i was dumbstruck by the patent falsehood of it.... and anyway i would never recommend someone to read it to learn "what not to do"... anymore than i'd tell someone to read a book on astrology to learn how not to do astronomy, or a book on alchemy to learn how not to do chemistry.

It all comes down to how you interpret it. Since the bible is not written in any narrative voice, nor does not state things like "do this" or "don't do this" with the exception of a few experts the concept of good and evil, right and wrong, black and white is being generated by the reader.

 

[James Murphy]

It all comes down to how you interpret it. Since the bible is not written in any narrative voice, nor does not state things like "do this" or "don't do this" with the exception of a few experts the concept of good and evil, right and wrong, black and white is being generated by the reader.

you just keep telling yourself that.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

you know what fuck this I am done, Atheist literally can be as intolerant as Theists. I have nothing more to say other than for everyone to continue harnessing their hatred for each other, because it is obviously what most of the extremes seem to do all so well. So as long as the two groups love to keep fighting, have at at it, I am not being apart of it.

 

[James Murphy]

you know what fuck this I am done, Atheist literally can be as intolerant as Theists. I have nothing more to say other than for everyone to continue harnessing their hatred for each other, because it is obviously what most of the extremes seem to do all so well. So as long as the two groups love to keep fighting, have at at it, I am not being apart of it.

i didn't say anything hateful.. you interpreted it that way. you see, it all comes down to how you interpret it


anyway, i'm not an atheist... at least not an extremist. i do admit that god may exist. but regardless of that concession, even given that proof may eventually be supplied, god's existence would not in any way proove that you, or anyone else ever knew his mind... much less the authors of the scriptures.

 

[STINNETT]

...nor does not state things like "do this" or "don't do this"....

Have you read Deuteronomy? Leviticus?

If I wanted to murder my children for being disobedient, I could find a passage in there that says "do this".

In order to make use of the Bible as a guidepost for morality, you must already possess a well developed morality. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to cherry pick well enough to decide which parts were the good parts.

 

[STINNETT]

you know what fuck this I am done, Atheist literally can be as intolerant as Theists. I have nothing more to say other than for everyone to continue harnessing their hatred for each other, because it is obviously what most of the extremes seem to do all so well. So as long as the two groups love to keep fighting, have at at it, I am not being apart of it.

We're just having a discussion, man. I haven't seen any hatred anywhere.

If you see an argument against your point of view as hateful "douchebaggery", then I believe you have a problem.

 

[slashvanyoung]

While it's true that you can link many of our basic laws and a general codex of morality in our "western world" to the bible, the Ten Commandments specifically, you could also link them to - surprise, surprise - common sense and natural socio-cultural progression.

I definitely think that there's a undeniable fundamental influence of Christian clergy to our cultures and societies on many levels.

Just compare our western societies to those of Islam centred countries.

The clergy's claim on moral authority was so penetrating for centuries, you'd be a fool to think that this hasn't left permanent marks.

However, I don't think there's much if any need for the bible or the clergy as an authoritative institution of morality these days as a generally accepted morality horizon has pervaded our culture so deeply that....

... there's no need for a backwards institution claiming a monopole on morality any more. If there ever was. And that's arguable.

 

[slashvanyoung]

Actually, the church even undermines many aspects of the generally accepted morality horizon of our modern societies.

I'd rather consider them a threat therefore.

 

[Executioner213]

Let alone going lightly on principle...the King James Bible was commissioned by the King of England in the 1600's. King James I was a tyrant, one of the most prolific to institute "The Divine Right Of Kings" which allowed him to answer to nobody, including the Pope. There is also a lot of mystery behind theories that Shakespeare was one of the writers of this *interpretation* of the bible. All of this took place HOW LONG after all these stories were supposed to take place??? I think that speaks for itself as to whether the book holds/should hold any validity to this day.

Emperor Constantine had a bible written after his reign as Emperor was over around 325 AD. He was the first Roman Emperor to be Christian...something that wouldn't fly unless you were Emperor and had the sway (military orders) to convince the people this was how it was gonna be. He also abolished persecution of all Christians, and gave all the Christians back their land which was confiscated because they were Christian. He outlawed all Jews from owning any Christian slaves. He was considered to be talked up pretty big and venerable for this, but they tend to sweep under the rug what slowly became common atrocity...the convert or die campaign. This stretched even further over time (hundreds of years) all the way to forced conversion of the Scandinavians to Christianity, to the inquisitions, to the claiming of the Americans and forced immersion of the native people to Christianity, to the Witch Trials, etc etc... It goes on and on.

And this is all just specifically about Christianity, and really just in a nutshell. Only one small corner of all the fucked up points of the religion subject...

(edit) Wow...all the stuff that came out while I was typing this between you guys, since I'm slow and doing it between my work, really just says the same thing. Historical fact should prove all of the spiritual substance to be just storytime...all the horrible acts committed in the name of these stories and beliefs never seem to stand up for their own in present times as to whether shit should be followed or not. Blindness continues.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Protestant here.

I'm going to guess it's because:

A) They don't want to start a debate.
B) They rather ignore having to deal with the epic Bible pawnage which might lead to doubt threatening their entire world view.

Ignorance is bliss?

"Ignorance is bliss?". That same phrase can just as easily be applied to one who would rather deny the existence of God and the possibility of there being an ultimate spiritual truth to submit to. To a person who doesn't like the idea of not being able to do whatever they want whenever they want, they are merely worshiping their own body and intellect, rather than God. Everyone is a worshiper, the only variable is what you choose to worship. Money, success, sex, food, fame, comfort, respect...you can add almost anything to that list, but they are all just functional saviors that one might put in place of Jesus.

To be fair, there certainly are Christians out there who have never spent serious time contrasting their beliefs against the "light" of science, and thus are ignorant to what scientific arguments might entail. However, to assume that because of this, they are somehow less in touch with reality, is a massively audacious conclusion to arrive at.

I have absolutely no problem speaking up and talking about the Bible here, but I am so outnumbered on these boards, that for every one point that I might articulate (especially in regards to the God vs. science debate), there will be ten people who will bring up something different, and I will never be able to keep up. Not that I don't want to answer legitimate questions and make my case, but practically speaking, it will eat up hours and hours of my time, and it's not like any of you are seeking to learn from me anyway! It's just not worth it for me to get involved in this kind of context. I know what's coming... "OOOH, OUR ETERNAL SOULS ARE NOT WORTH YOUR TIME? GOTCHA." The truth is that God is the only one changes someone's heart and nature, not other people. That doesn't mean Christians don't ever have to try to talk to anyone about spiritual things, but it does mean that my engagements with people should be Spirit-led (as in Holy Spirit), rather than just me deciding on my own that it might be fruitful to pick a fight with a bunch of athiests who already have spiritually hardened hearts.

You science guys definitely amaze me though, in that you are so absolutely certain and convinced that science has all the answers, and that there is no room for a spiritual realm to exist. As I've stated before on here and got no response- if God exists, then he is the author of science, so how can his existence be threatened by science? The only answer to this question is that you are unwilling to consider worshiping something other than your own fleeting desires.

 

[Notuern]

you know what fuck this I am done, Atheist literally can be as intolerant as Theists. I have nothing more to say other than for everyone to continue harnessing their hatred for each other, because it is obviously what most of the extremes seem to do all so well. So as long as the two groups love to keep fighting, have at at it, I am not being apart of it.

I am an agnostic, not an Atheist.
The bible cant be interpreted as something thats even remotely moral without ignoring the vast majority of its content.. and thats ignorance and blind faith, not interpretation.

If you feel like ignoring the 75% of the bible that is about incest, genocide, torture, rape and everlasting pain for those who "do not abide the lord", thats fine.. but don't come and say that the bible teaches good ethics and/or moral standpoints.