Are the masses content or just naive?

[Reign in Acai]

This thread stems from swigglenuts grand scheme of imposing his musical tastes upon his school chums. It's apparent that any genre that has any semblance of musical integrity falls to the curb and is drowned by the over-bearing sea of mainstream drivel. Is it because the average citizen is unaware of all this great music that isn't spread on mtv, local radio stations, and magazines on every aisle of your local supermarket? In societies so consumed by image, technicality is secondary.

Not every person can be automatically enlightened at the drop of a hat. I once attempted to help my buddy out with some better music. I literally gave him what I still believe is one of the greatest "rock" albums of all time. I asked him a week later what he thought of it all. His reply "meh". Yet he finds Eagles of Death Metal & Glassjaw to be top of the mountain. :Shrugs: On another occasion I played "Alive in Athens" by Iced Earth in front of my buddies. Big mistake, they just sat their with a face of disgust. Hence now, in front of my friends my musical tastes are now as much in the closet as Profanity's gym clothes.

Does the world really want to be subjugated to good music? You never see any folk, metal & classical albums on the Billboard Charts. Is it because music outlets don't showcase this brand of music? Or is it simply because the individual is content with what is spoonfed to them ? If every genre of music had the same footing would what is strong now stay at the top of the mountain?

Does John Doe actually enjoy this music with all sincerity? Or are they just too lazy to find music on their own? I'm starting to think it's the latter.


P.S Not that I give a shit...I just felt like posting.

 

[polarity]

Some people are just stupid and thus content, while some are naive. I'm not sure about the percentages of each, but I'd be willing to guess that a majority of people would appreciate at least some non-mainstream (thought perhaps not "underground" per se) music. One important thing to note is that you can't just throw people in at the deep end, e.g. if you'd played me a Darkthrone CD 5 years ago, I would've called it trash. This isn't because I've become greatly more intelligent since then (although I have ), but rather because the prejudices towards certain types of music that become enforced in most people's minds through years of listening to nothing but mainstream music (I'd guess for most people who do eventually get into underground music it's at least 13 years) have to be stripped away a little at a time.

 

[WNxScythe]

I can speak sincerily about this since I was one of those "stupid and naive" people just six months ago (about)...

Yes I enjoyed it... I was all about Linkin Park and Staind and Blink 182 and etc... etc...

Until finally, 2 things changed it.

1) I started getting REALLY tired of the guitar work in all the bands I liked
2) I started hearing people on internet reviews call Linkin Park "poser metal" and "wannabes" and people were saying... "go listen to suchnsuch for REAL metal"... I had no idea what they were talking about. I didnt think Linkin Park was "real metal", but I thought it was metallish and good music.

Finally I got over my fanboyishness and actually investigated these reports. I followed up on a number of bands, listening to Metallica (couldn't stand them because of the vocals), Iron Maiden (again, vocals), a series of DM bands that were just too agressive for me... and finally I found a lil' something called Children of Bodom. This is what really converted me... now obviously some of you will call CoB posers/crap whatever, but I like them, and I don't think ANYONE can call them talentless, even if they aren't COMPLETELY original, tho they're better than most. Anyway's, got crazy over CoB, and that just opened the road to everything else.

So in the end it's ignorance of better music, and the fact that most metal requires a development of taste b4 you start to like it (I hated distorted vocals at first, now I love em)

 

[Necro Joe]

Most people just don't care that much about music and don't have the desire to go digging around in an underground scene. Some of the most intelligent people I know listen to music that is popular and are perfectly content with it. I feel no need force them to listen to music which they don't enjoy, and I'm not pathetic enough to go around declaring that my taste in music is 'superior' to anyone elses.

 

[polarity]

I attempted to post pretty much the same thing as Erik earlier but gave up because I am tired and lazy.

gg erik

 

[Scourge of Malice]

Up until high school I was naive, so I took all the crap that was fed to me by the mainstream without thinking there was anything else out there.

Then I heard CKY for the first time. At the time they were unknown and everyone thought I was wierd for wearing a shirt of theirs and being so into them. I ended up joining a messageboard of theirs and many of the people on there were into underground music. Slowly I was reccomended more and more stuff and realized how much good music I was missing. I'm so thankful for this as I honestly would probably be listening to Linkin Park right now if it wasn't for this.

 

[The Devil's Steed]

I can speak sincerily about this since I was one of those "stupid and naive" people just six months ago (about)...

Yes I enjoyed it... I was all about Linkin Park and Staind and Blink 182 and etc... etc...

Until finally, 2 things changed it.

1) I started getting REALLY tired of the guitar work in all the bands I liked
2) I started hearing people on internet reviews call Linkin Park "poser metal" and "wannabes" and people were saying... "go listen to suchnsuch for REAL metal"... I had no idea what they were talking about. I didnt think Linkin Park was "real metal", but I thought it was metallish and good music.

Finally I got over my fanboyishness and actually investigated these reports. I followed up on a number of bands, listening to Metallica (couldn't stand them because of the vocals), Iron Maiden (again, vocals), a series of DM bands that were just too agressive for me... and finally I found a lil' something called Children of Bodom. This is what really converted me... now obviously some of you will call CoB posers/crap whatever, but I like them, and I don't think ANYONE can call them talentless, even if they aren't COMPLETELY original, tho they're better than most. Anyway's, got crazy over CoB, and that just opened the road to everything else.

So in the end it's ignorance of better music, and the fact that most metal requires a development of taste b4 you start to like it (I hated distorted vocals at first, now I love em)

The vocals of THOSE bands made you not like them, but you didn't mind CoB's vocals? That's...ironic, seeing as CoB's vocals are very much an acquired taste.

 

[TheGrim69er]

Well I used to be into all that mainstream crap until I heard Manowar and Iron Maiden, and basically I was blown away, this was about a year ago.

I think the main reason that so many people are into mainstream bullcrap is because they are too stupid to realise what is good music because of mtv. They believe that music to be good it must sound like what is on mtv. Thus many of them could be shown one of the greatest metal bands in the world, and most of them would probably be this sucks man, the can't even sing, and why can't they sing, because the vocals do not sound like shitty arse rap n rnb vocals. Most of them also go with what mtv says about certain types of music, ie they believe whatever mtv says about it. With classical its made to look like music for really snotty rich people and with metal, made to look like music for people who have problems ie marylin manson. They are also too stupid to tell totally different types of music apart, I once showed a friend of mine amon amarth, and he didn't like them because it sounded like marylin manson, which they sounded nothing alike. Thus why are so many ppl into shitty music, well because they are idiots who have been brainwashed by mtv.

 

[WNxScythe]

The vocals of THOSE bands made you not like them, but you didn't mind CoB's vocals? That's...ironic, seeing as CoB's vocals are very much an acquired taste.

Yeah... I realize many may like Iron Maiden and Metallica vocals but I simply cannot stand it. It sounds way way way too cheezy (ESPECIALLY Iron Maiden... sounds like some dying 50 year old). CoB's vocals for some reason didn't bother me, it definitely wasnt corny, tho it was different. I still had trouble listening to slightly more distorted vocals ala Lumanis (chainsaw voice ) but I soon got over that

 

[the phoenix]

Music is an artform and its creator, through it, seeks to express an idea. These ideas can be of varying degrees of complexity. The music itself can only hold so much information about this idea. The majority of the communication between the music's creator and the listener is done through symbolization, that is, the music represents the idea to which it corresponds. The music, obviously, does not recreate or copy this idea; ideas cannot take on a musical form. Rather, it points to it through symbolism.

Music quality, in this sense, is evaluated by how well the music represents and evokes in the listener (expresses), the idea which the music's creator had in mind. But, again, music can only go so far, and the rest is up to the listener to interpret the sounds correctly. If the listener has no prior understanding of the idea to which the music refers, no matter how many times he listens to the music, his understanding will remain marginal. The music cannot do it alone; the listener must be at least partly knowledgeable.

Thus, the more complex the thought behind the music, the more knowledgeable the listener must be in order to fully appreciate the music. Since the mass population is rather ignorant, good music (music representing a complex idea or set of ideas) is difficult for them to fully appreciate. Having only a superficial understanding of most things, the masses are content to listen to superficial music. Anything more and they won't understand it, let alone enjoy it.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I'm tired, but phoenix's post looks pretty good.

Here's some points which are relevant in one way or another.

Note 1: You'll be able to get rock fans into types of metal like Gothenburg and Thrash with relative ease, seeing as the purpose is pretty much still the same - to please audibly, though generally with a darker tinge (which a lot of people are looking for in rock music anyway - and also a lot of them aren't, thus there's a filtration process). A lot of traditional metal sounds dated these days to most people as well (and guess what, it is), but they won't find most thrash dated as they won't have been exposed to it (whereas I have, and do).

People coming in from the pop side tend to look at things too superficially to appreciate the music in any way. They want social status - they want a giggling conversation with their friends and a wet patch in their panties - they want a nice happy little sing-song. They idolise pop bands because they hope to one day emulate them, and other such tripe.

People who aren't too interested in music won't have the time or patience to get something out of good music.

Note 2: Advertising is obviously a big part of it, but these bands aren't highly advertised because money is only flowing through the mainstream and to get to the mainstream you need to create something utterly populist and shallow.

Note 3: Extreme (and I mean extreme, I don't mean bands without clean vocals) bands can not be mainstream and good. If an anti-Christian band was mainstream, the society wouldn't be Christian, or the band wouldn't be doing a very good job of not being Christian - both of these scenarios render the band worthless. Etc.

Note 4: I believe that my favourite music has objective quality because I believe my worldview has objective quality (I mean that when put in context to the 'whole' it is healthy and logical) and the music represents some of my ideals in all cases. Thus, I believe this music is 'superior' to a lot of music but have no reason to show it to the 99.999% of people in the world who won't really 'get' it - this is perhaps my underlying answer to your question - the majority can't appreciate good music without a major societal change.

 

[Reign in Acai]

I'm tired, but phoenix's post looks pretty good.

Here's some points which are relevant in one way or another.

Note 1: You'll be able to get rock fans into types of metal like Gothenburg and Thrash with relative ease, seeing as the purpose is pretty much still the same - to please audibly, though generally with a darker tinge (which a lot of people are looking for in rock music anyway - and also a lot of them aren't, thus there's a filtration process). A lot of traditional metal sounds dated these days to most people as well (and guess what, it is), but they won't find most thrash dated as they won't have been exposed to it (whereas I have, and do).

People coming in from the pop side tend to look at things too superficially to appreciate the music in any way. They want social status - they want a giggling conversation with their friends and a wet patch in their panties - they want a nice happy little sing-song. They idolise pop bands because they hope to one day emulate them, and other such tripe.

People who aren't too interested in music won't have the time or patience to get something out of good music.

Note 2: Advertising is obviously a big part of it, but these bands aren't highly advertised because money is only flowing through the mainstream and to get to the mainstream you need to create something utterly populist and shallow.

Note 3: Extreme (and I mean extreme, I don't mean bands without clean vocals) bands can not be mainstream and good. If an anti-Christian band was mainstream, the society wouldn't be Christian, or the band wouldn't be doing a very good job of not being Christian - both of these scenarios render the band worthless. Etc.

Note 4: I believe that my favourite music has objective quality because I believe my worldview has objective quality (I mean that when put in context to the 'whole' it is healthy and logical) and the music represents some of my ideals in all cases. Thus, I believe this music is 'superior' to a lot of music but have no reason to show it to the 99.999% of people in the world who won't really 'get' it - this is perhaps my underlying answer to your question - the majority can't appreciate good music without a major societal change.

Good fucking post!

 

[polarity]

Music is an artform and its creator, through it, seeks to express an idea. These ideas can be of varying degrees of complexity. The music itself can only hold so much information about this idea. The majority of the communication between the music's creator and the listener is done through symbolization, that is, the music represents the idea to which it corresponds. The music, obviously, does not recreate or copy this idea; ideas cannot take on a musical form. Rather, it points to it through symbolism.

Music quality, in this sense, is evaluated by how well the music represents and evokes in the listener (expresses), the idea which the music's creator had in mind. But, again, music can only go so far, and the rest is up to the listener to interpret the sounds correctly. If the listener has no prior understanding of the idea to which the music refers, no matter how many times he listens to the music, his understanding will remain marginal. The music cannot do it alone; the listener must be at least partly knowledgeable.

Thus, the more complex the thought behind the music, the more knowledgeable the listener must be in order to fully appreciate the music. Since the mass population is rather ignorant, good music (music representing a complex idea or set of ideas) is difficult for them to fully appreciate. Having only a superficial understanding of most things, the masses are content to listen to superficial music. Anything more and they won't understand it, let alone enjoy it.

Good post, but you neglect to mention that a) people can misinterpret symbols yet still appreciate the meaning they draw from them (it could be argued that "misinterpret" is an incorrect term here, as the aim for the listener of music should be to allow the music to communicate something beneficial to them, not to meticulously decode the work into what the artist intended to communicate) and b) people may only interpret certain symbols, and fail to notice others (see the difference between those who appreciate Suffocation's compositional value, and those who enjoy them because they're "br00tal d00d!")

Of course, I'm just nitpicking .

 

[EternalMetal]

^^yea, i really liked it too.

 

[Christie_fell]

I can speak sincerily about this since I was one of those "stupid and naive" people just six months ago (about)...

Yes I enjoyed it... I was all about Linkin Park and Staind and Blink 182 and etc... etc...

Until finally, 2 things changed it.

1) I started getting REALLY tired of the guitar work in all the bands I liked
2) I started hearing people on internet reviews call Linkin Park "poser metal" and "wannabes" and people were saying... "go listen to suchnsuch for REAL metal"... I had no idea what they were talking about. I didnt think Linkin Park was "real metal", but I thought it was metallish and good music.

Finally I got over my fanboyishness and actually investigated these reports. I followed up on a number of bands, listening to Metallica (couldn't stand them because of the vocals), Iron Maiden (again, vocals), a series of DM bands that were just too agressive for me... and finally I found a lil' something called Children of Bodom. This is what really converted me... now obviously some of you will call CoB posers/crap whatever, but I like them, and I don't think ANYONE can call them talentless, even if they aren't COMPLETELY original, tho they're better than most. Anyway's, got crazy over CoB, and that just opened the road to everything else.

So in the end it's ignorance of better music, and the fact that most metal requires a development of taste b4 you start to like it (I hated distorted vocals at first, now I love em)

So, basically what you're saying is that you started to go deeper into music when other's were telling you what was "better". You see, THIS is why I think the masses listen to the mainstream pop/rap/hiphop/r&b/etc.. of today: it's a popularity contest. Everything is. When someone likes something, it's inevitable that another person will go off to see what it's like, and, even though they MAY disagree, keep that to themselves, and force it upon themselves to like it. Since Johnny likes Eminem, and Johnny is COOL, Eminem is cool! Also, it's a sense of fraternity, in a way, I suppose. When riding in the car with fellow girlfriends, one would like to sing along with them to their precious Avril Lavigne and John Mayer. And since no one likes to be left out, they do what they perceive as the cool thing to do.

The only reason you, WNxScythe, got into metal, was because you were told how "poser"-like the music you were listening to was. You didn't like being a poser. Sorry if I'm picking on you, just using you as an example, nothing personal. You're not the only one.

And this isn't the only reason the masses listen to that shit out there on the billboards. Just one that I can see clearly. Personally, I like it this way. Just a better way to clear out the dumbfucks of our society.

 

[Cythraul]

I agree with GoD on all points. My whole thing is if people can't appreciate the music I listen to why waste my time giving a shit? If it's in my nature to think different, act different, and listen to different music, etc. then I figure that it's in the nature of the herd to be "herd-like." Why would anyone want to change that? That is what creates the distinction and is what, in part, gives value to being an outsider. In response to Phoenix, a person can enjoy music purely for the effect it has aesthetically. It doesn't necessarily have to be about decoding symbology and meaning.

 

[Lord SteveO]

Although until a few years ago i too was pretty into some of the trendy metal stuff like LP etc i always had some less well known stuff like Sepultura (the old stuff), Iron Maiden etc at the same time to fall back onto. I knew all too well that the majority of what was played on MTV and so on was mainstream and poser type music crap that the indusatry spewed out just to make money. But at that time i had no internet and only enough money to buy a couple of albums a year. Not easy to get into the genres of music that are less publicly known when you're in that situation.
I don't think you can make people listen to and enjoy what you deem to be good decent music, even if all us UM users worship the stuff as i'm sure we do, because at the end of the day it's up to them.
A lot of people will listen to mainstream stuff and be happy. No problems with them. It's when their kind start to take over my favourite genres and change it to be more publicly accesible that i get pissed.
For me but not for all music lovers, my music that i listen to or play is one of the best things about life. If other people are too naive or "trendy" to branch out then leave 'em where there are.

 

[polarity]

a person can enjoy music purely for the effect it has aesthetically. It doesn't necessarily have to be about decoding symbology and meaning.

Meaning is drawn from aesthetics, even if it's not a conscious process (for the vast majority of people, even musical "intellectuals," it is subconscious). If someone enjoys a piece of music even on what we may consider a non-artistic level, they have still interpreted some meaning from it that they find agreeable. Even something as base as "it rocks!" is an interpretation.

 

[The Devil's Steed]

Yeah... I realize many may like Iron Maiden and Metallica vocals but I simply cannot stand it. It sounds way way way too cheezy (ESPECIALLY Iron Maiden... sounds like some dying 50 year old). CoB's vocals for some reason didn't bother me, it definitely wasnt corny, tho it was different. I still had trouble listening to slightly more distorted vocals ala Lumanis (chainsaw voice ) but I soon got over that

I disagree with the statement about the vocals, however, CoB's definitely qualify as "cheesy", too. It just suprised me that you hated clean vocals, but didn't mind CoB's type of vocal style, which annoys the hell out of most people that hear them for quite a while, until they get use to it.

 

[Cythraul]

Meaning is drawn from aesthetics, even if it's not a conscious process (for the vast majority of people, even musical "intellectuals," it is subconscious). If someone enjoys a piece of music even on what we may consider a non-artistic level, they have still interpreted some meaning from it that they find agreeable. Even something as base as "it rocks!" is an interpretation.

I have been owned. I guess you're right. Actually, that makes a perfectly valid philosophical observation if you apply it to everyday experience. The effect one's experience has upon oneself is derived from that person's interpretation. I guess you can't really make sense of any experience without interpreting it. Thus, there is no way to determine if you like a particular kind of music without interpreting it in light of your own beliefs. But I'm digressing a little too much here. Good point.