Are we our bodies?

Norsemaiden

barbarian
Dec 12, 2005
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Are our bodies us, or are they something that we own? Should everyone have the right to do what they want with their own bodies?

The morality of the past (last couple of centuries)has held that our bodies are on loan from God and that we're forbidden from tampering with His property. Pagans,too, felt that there were limitations to what a person was free to do with their body. Pagans saw their body as being themselves.

To some extent this notion is challenged by the discovery that the brain is where the mind is. Does this knowledge make people see the rest of their body differently?

Nowadays, people tend to think the idea that there are some things you should not do with your body is outdated. However, euthanasia and suicide generally are illegal in most western countries. This is the law imposing itself on what we can do with our bodies.

Descartes thought of the Self as an inner homunculus, which was seperate from, and in control of, the body. This is the idea that you are a subject, but your body is an object that you make do things for you - but the fact that it is yours, you own it as property, is critical to how you perceive it.

What do you think of a scenario where one could go a step further and be made to feel that your body is the property of the government or of a corporation? Can you imagine how this might hypothetically happen? Is a slave's body his own or the property of his master?

Prostitutes argue (assuming they have understood the issue to some extent) that "this body is mine, so I should be allowed to hire it out for sex". But if they have a pimp, he probably sees their body as his property.

If your body is a thing you own, you may feel free to give it away, or parts of it: a finger, ear, etc. Someone may feel free to give their body over to a cannibal, such as the recent case in Germany. Is this acceptable?

The British philosopher Roger Scruton proposes that there "is another and better way of seeing things, however, and it is one that explains much of that old morality that people find so puzzling. On this view my body is not my property but - to use the theological term - my incarnation. My body is not an object, but a subject, just as I am. I don't own it any more than I own myself. I am inextricably mingled with it, and what is done to my body is done to me. And there are ways of treating it that cause me to think and feel as I would not otherwise think or feel, to lose my moral sense, to become hardened or indifferent to others, to cease to make judgements or to be guided by principles and ideals. When this happens it is not just I who am harmed: all those who love me, need me or relate to me are harmed as well. For I have damaged the part on which relationships are built."
 
Norsemaiden said:
Pagans,too, felt that there were limitations to what a person was free to do with their body. Pagans saw their body as being themselves.

I don't get it. If they saw their bodies as being themselves, then why did they feel there were limitations to what one could do with their own body?
 
Devy_Metal said:
I don't get it. If they saw their bodies as being themselves, then why did they feel there were limitations to what one could do with their own body?

I might not be able to explain this very well. It is just that the person's outer appeareance was generally seen as a reflection of who they were as a person. Also, Vikings had taboos against tattoos, because as I have mentioned in another thread, they were superstitious about the supernatural power of various markings. This could be called a limitation on what they could do with their bodies. The point is that they didn't see their body as belonging to god and they didn't think in terms of being a mind that is in control of this body thing (subject/object split).

To answer Neith, of course there are still people who argue that the mind can be seperate from the brain. Discoveries in science since the 17th century have led to it being the predominant scientific view that the mind is a product of events in the brain. I don't state this as being a crucial fact for this debate, as it is a side issue. Science says that the brain is the part of the body involved in thought processes, no other part of the body is a possible place for the mind.

The question I have been asking is not whether the mind is housed in the brain, but whether our bodies are objects we control (with our mind wherever that is) or whether we feel that we ARE our bodies and our bodies are us. Also whether we have any duty to treat our bodies in a certain way out of respect for other people.
 
Is this thread not philosophical enough?! There is so much more that could be discussed here.

If people think of their bodies as their own property, to do with as they please and it is no business of anyone else, then that has implications for the National Health Service. If someone thinks they can eat junk food regardless of how ill it makes them, or smoke or drink excessively or be a drug adict, then how does that make people feel who are taxed to pay for medical care for such people? Perhaps there should be restrictions on medical care for people who abuse their bodies. Surely that is justified? At the moment the NHS is struggling to manage to afford to care for all the people that require help. Isn't it objectionable that people who abuse their bodies or fail to look after their own health should be given equal priority in this situation with others who have tried to show more responsibility? Are the terms "responsibility" or "irresponsibility" pertinent to this question?
 
Norsemaiden said:
The British philosopher Roger Scruton proposes that there "is another and better way of seeing things, however, and it is one that explains much of that old morality that people find so puzzling. On this view my body is not my property but - to use the theological term - my incarnation. My body is not an object, but a subject, just as I am. I don't own it any more than I own myself. I am inextricably mingled with it, and what is done to my body is done to me. And there are ways of treating it that cause me to think and feel as I would not otherwise think or feel, to lose my moral sense, to become hardened or indifferent to others, to cease to make judgements or to be guided by principles and ideals. When this happens it is not just I who am harmed: all those who love me, need me or relate to me are harmed as well. For I have damaged the part on which relationships are built."

I like this formulation. Incarnation, or avatar, at least is how the ancient Hindus saw this question: the physical was a means to an end, which was the spiritual maintenance of a higher organization to reality.
 
I think this is a question that would be best answered through a genealogy of the body. I have not studied such a genaeology in depth so I am somewhat limited in what I can say. I will say this much, the way the relationship between the body and the self is percieved is most definintley effected by the social structures that are in place. With this in mind we should consider that the concepts of ownership and possesion are predominatley concepts essential to cultures where land is owned. This is supported by the fact that virtually all hunter-gather groups as well as many "traditional" agricultural cultures consider the land to own thier entire being rather then the opposite. From what I can tell, ownership has a much different meaning in this context closer to belonging then possesion.

As for the question of what is the true nature of the relationship between the self and the body, this is a metaphysical question, which I pass on.
 
infoterror said:
I like this formulation. Incarnation, or avatar, at least is how the ancient Hindus saw this question: the physical was a means to an end, which was the spiritual maintenance of a higher organization to reality.

Perhaps people who take this view demonstrate more self-respect generally than those who feel less that their body is their self.

Another consideration is that all of our DNA is contained in each and every cell of our body. In theory you could be cloned from one of these cells, and in any case an analysis of that DNA can be used to identify you. Just as it is reasonable to view a clone of yourself as being you, perhaps it is more reasonable to see your DNA as being you, and thus your whole body. It is important to understand that this view of your whole body being you means that you are not your mind, but the complete being.

If someone has a replacement limb or organ, either plastic or from a donor, they may see this as being not them, but as a part of them that they own as property and distinguish it from the parts of their body that they think of as being themself. Whereas the person who doesn't think of their body as being them, but as property in the first place, wouldn't make such a distinction.
 
I would say, no. If you were to lose and arm, liver, toe, or what have you, then that part is no longer associated with self, and therefore, the body can not actually be the self. I am a firm believer in ghost in the machine, or even as far as the body being an incarnation of what you think you are.
 
Silver Incubus said:
I would say, no. If you were to lose and arm, liver, toe, or what have you, then that part is no longer associated with self, and therefore, the body can not actually be the self.
This is implied in our use of "I" in English (and presumably its sister languages) but does this mean that this is an ontological truth, or is it something we are conditioned to believe?

I'm inclined towards the later. The former presupposes "I" as a constant, unchanging subject. However, all living subjects are in constant transformation from moment to moment. Thus one at the moment before she loses her toe and one at the moment after she loses her toe are not the same being.
 
crimsonfloyd said:
This is implied in our use of "I" in English (and presumably its sister languages) but does this mean that this is an ontological truth, or is it something we are conditioned to believe?

I'm inclined towards the later. The former presupposes "I" as a constant, unchanging subject. However, all living subjects are in constant transformation from moment to moment. Thus one at the moment before she loses her toe and one at the moment after she loses her toe are not the same being.

Isn't that what I said. The same Physical being to be precise as we perceive change in this dimension, but the experiencer never changes becaue it is still experiencing.

I is used to refer to the body, in the current state, or in a previous state that resembles or preludes the current self as only a state a reference. I can't remembe which philosopher had a notion that the man you were 10 years ago that committed a crime shouldn't be tried as the man you are today, because scientifically you are not the same person or body anymore.

This also touches on the buddist idea of reincarnation, in which we are constantly being reincarnated.
 
Perhaps it is possible when someone accepts that it isn't the mind that contains the Self, but it goes further than that, that not only the body is the Self, but even things beyond the body are the Self also. One may feel such a bonding with the natural environment and the universe in its natural (uninterfered with by mankind) state that all of nature is thought of as an extension of oneself, and is essential to one's integrity. That would be a really holistic view anyway.

In the natural world there are some groups of animals, such as ants, which function together as if they were one organism. To an ant, their Self is their entire colony. Not that ants have a consciousness like humans to try and observe themselves or be consciously aware of Self as we can be.
 
On the topic of subjective metaphysics...
If everything is subjective, then how can the subject itself exist?
This puzzles me :/
 
Ashen_Mirth said:
On the topic of subjective metaphysics...
If everything is subjective, then how can the subject itself exist?
This puzzles me :/

I really don't understand what you going for with this?:erk:

Of course subject exists because there are other subjective consciousnesses experiencing and interacting with other subjective consciousnesses or simply one point of view experiencing another based on their own experiences.
 
Some extreme subjectivians believe that everything one perceives are illusions created by the mind.
But if that were the case, then you couldn't really create anything, since that would be an illusion too.
If this applied to everyone and everything,
then the creation that was you, would be nothing but an illusion too.

You don't seem to be that far out though.

If "all there is" is the product of each subjective individual experiencing and interacting with eachother, then the general idea is more of an objective sort, than it is subjective.

Ofcourse relativity applies, and we all perceive things differently,
but in the end; what is, is.
 
Ashen_Mirth said:
Some extreme subjectivians believe that everything one perceives are illusions created by the mind.
But if that were the case, then you couldn't really create anything, since that would be an illusion too.
If this applied to everyone and everything,
then the creation that was you, would be nothing but an illusion too.

You don't seem to be that far out though.

If "all there is" is the product of each subjective individual experiencing and interacting with eachother, then the general idea is more of an objective sort, than it is subjective.

Ofcourse relativity applies, and we all perceive things differently,
but in the end; what is, is.

If someone thought that "everything one perceives are illusions created by the mind" then would they bother making sure they had a healthy diet, excercised, studied, drove their car sensibly, etc? Would they be a total hedonist? Or would they achieve nirvana?
 
Norsemaiden said:
If someone thought that "everything one perceives are illusions created by the mind" then would they bother making sure they had a healthy diet, excercised, studied, drove their car sensibly, etc? Would they be a total hedonist? Or would they achieve nirvana?

They would bother to maintain their illusion, because their illusion matters to them.