Astrology, spiritual ant other alternative stuff

[Leandro]

Yes, if we're able to break free from our millions of years of psychological conditioning.

See, here's the deal. The laws of science are either deterministic (given inputs, you know exactly what the outputs are) or have some degree of randomness (somewhere along the way there's a die roll). Somewhere along the chain a conscious being should be able to make choices, but it's nowhere to be seen.
Point being, we may THINK we choose, but... do we?

Science is very formulated in the sense that scientists all over the world have data that they compare to conclude whether something to be consistantly true or not. My proposal is to somehow integrate the realm of science to miracles such as synchronicity and people beating uncurable diseases. In the scientific world if something is very difficult to figure out such as the immesurable realm of spirituality, shouldn't that give them more motivation to figure it out instead of give up?

Exactly. Except when there's nothing to figure out. You can't measure, it's not there, plain and simple. Before you argue that there could be interactions which we can't measure - we can obviously measure their EFFECTS. And every study came up blank.

Example: a study on astrology I've seen.

http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/AstroSkc.htm
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v318/n6045/abs/318419a0.html

An astrologer is given accurate data of an individual, and asked to draw a natal chart. He's then given 3 psychological profiles, one of which is his "client"'s, and is asked to best match them to the natal chart he's drawn.

The astrologers nailed the impressive mark of 33%.

/thread

 

[Noble Viking]

^ "In this world there are three types of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics"

Sometimes we choose, sometimes we don't; that's why I mentioned grace. Until science unveils the mysteries of the mind, I can't deny the power of the unconscious. I have to disagree about the effects comment too because there are studies on the effects of intent and prayer, dreams and cases of people surviving uncurable disease. The effects of miracles have been seen, it's just that the formulas haven't been figured out yet. If somehow we could combine the disciplines of science and spirtuality together, we might be able to unravel some of the mysteries as to why miracles occur. Like I said, just because something is difficult to figure out, doesn't mean we should give up on it

 

[Leandro]

^ "In this world there are three types of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics"

A joke is a joke, not an argument. Astrology is a lie, and that is proof.

Sometimes we choose, sometimes we don't; that's why I mentioned grace.

Point is... do we EVER choose?

If somehow we could combine the disciplines of science and spirtuality together, we might be able to unravel some of the mysteries as to why miracles occur. Like I said, just because something is difficult to figure out, doesn't mean we should give up on it

There's a little problem figuring out something that doesn't exist. Science deals with things that DO exist. Spirituality deals with things people fear don't.

 

[Noble Viking]

^ I'm not trying to argue, but that wasn't supposed to be a joke. People manipulate numbers and statistics to acheive results that promote their own aims. Science is not the answer to everything and especially not the psychology of the human mind. I will trust a doctor, scientist or mathmatician when I want objective answers, but when it comes to ways to live there's no one that knows the right answer. That is why spirituality is important.

There is some truth to astrology just like how every discipline has something to offer. It's that people live in their own fragments of life and fail to recognize the whole realm of knowledge. They build a fence around them for personal security because their past knowlege makes them who they are. I speak about this through experience and my denials and fears of spirituality. Revising our lives with new information threatens our security and that's why so many people immediately use their prejudices and biases against the new information. Just like the guy who consulted Carl Jung in hopes of alleviating his problems with alcoholism, he denied any sort of "higher being" until he found his connection with his "higher power" , accepted grace, forgave himself and started the 12 steps of Alcoholics Annonymus. Great things can be achieved when we don't live in fragments of life and experience this spiritual revelation for ourselves.

 

[Leandro]

If you think his numbers are manipulated, it's simple: redo the experiment! That is science

That experiment proves that there is no truth to astrology, simply put.

And last, what people achieve by deceiving themselves changes nothing. The truth is the truth, and truth is unnaffected by want.

 

[SteveMCsteve]

i love this thread.

 

[spirit crusher]

If you think his numbers are manipulated, it's simple: redo the experiment! That is science

That experiment proves that there is no truth to astrology, simply put.

And last, what people achieve by deceiving themselves changes nothing. The truth is the truth, and truth is unnaffected by want.

QFT

 

[marfal66]

No matter what you're discussing and your expertise in it, if Leandro joins, you lose!

 

[Mystique1721]

The psychological revolution in the mind has no substitute. A healthy and alert mind is always skeptical like you have, but the skeptics are usually the ones that haven't had a first hand spiritual realization for themselves

that's because the skeptics don't have faith in these falsities that religious/spiritual people come up with. faith = a type of belief that is not grounded on any facts or proof.

The answer to the question "why" things have come to be is not really known except that we all hear the voices from our unconscious suggesting us to grow.

voices within our unconscious? sorry, but no.

One thing is certain, something is sending us down this path of physical, sociologial and spiritual evolution. An infantile regression into nothingness will make us repeat the same steps again; that's why we have made mistakes.

wait a minute...you just said if there was nothingness then we wouldn't be able to feel or think. so how are we caught up in a regression into nothingness?

I love how 'discredited anything that couldn't be physically measured' is said like it's a bad thing

fo real. this actually pertains to many things. death is said like it's a bad thing as well. people who believe in satan or any other "evil" beings are looked down at. which is so ridiculous considering "satan" and "god" are the same exact things- conjures of the human mind.

@ Muffin

I base these claims off of the faculties of the mind. No one knows how they work.

So your evidence is that there is no evidence?

In logic, this would be called begging the question. It is a logical fallacy and Chris is claiming that this is already proven, without any logic to explain why it is true in the first place.

See, here's the deal. The laws of science are either deterministic (given inputs, you know exactly what the outputs are) or have some degree of randomness (somewhere along the way there's a die roll). Somewhere along the chain a conscious being should be able to make choices, but it's nowhere to be seen.
Point being, we may THINK we choose, but... do we?

This reminds me of an argument that Boethius came up with (he was a medeival philosopher). He tried to solve the problem of free will if god is all knowing. his argument is something like this:

1. God knows every event (including future ones)
2. When someone knows an event will happen, then the event will happen.
3. Necessarily, if somone knows an event will happen, then it will happen.
4. by premise 3, if someone knows an event will happen, then it will necessarily happen.
5. Thus, every event (including future events) happen necessarily.

so basically, he thought that people do have free will but it is determined by god at the same time. future events remain completely free (free will) but because of god, future contingent events have the certainity which makes them objects of knowledge, and according to Bothius' proof, necessary events.




but of course, this proof is based on modal logic . accordingly, what is present is necessary.

 

[vikk]

fuck this thread, i make my own luck

 

[Ensi]

No matter what you're discussing and your expertise in it, if Leandro joins, you lose!

THIS

Leandro pwns everyone

 

[Noble Viking]

that's because the skeptics don't have faith in these falsities that religious/spiritual people come up with. faith = a type of belief that is not grounded on any facts or proof.

Sorry, but this is definitely wrong. The proof is evident because every new scientific discovery was unknown before it was known. How did these people think that their theories were right when they wern't proven yet? It was because they had a hunch, an intuition that told them to have faith. We are not faith itself, but instruments of it. Usually no new discovery is acheived without a touch of madness and faith.

voices within our unconscious? sorry, but no.

I thought everyone heard that little voice talking to them inside? I find it hard to believe that you don't.

wait a minute...you just said if there was nothingness then we wouldn't be able to feel or think. so how are we caught up in a regression into nothingness?

That was in response to you saying that the world is really nothingness. If we regressed into believing that the world had no meanings, we would be prone to make the same mistakes again. Our mistakes are the cutting edge between success and failure. Without having made our mistakes, we wouldn't be where we are in terms of the progress of our ethics and spirituality today.

In logic, this would be called begging the question. It is a logical fallacy and Chris is claiming that this is already proven, without any logic to explain why it is true in the first place.

I'm trying to support my hypothesis, not claiming it to be true. If descions to love and have emotional stability were chemical reactions, wouldn't someone had figured out the formula to happiness through science by now? Claiming that choosing how we want to feel arises through some specific chemical reaction has no proof either. If science did hold the key to knowing what makes people choose to do things, please let me know.

This reminds me of an argument that Boethius came up with (he was a medeival philosopher). He tried to solve the problem of free will if god is all knowing. his argument is something like this:

1. God knows every event (including future ones)
2. When someone knows an event will happen, then the event will happen.
3. Necessarily, if somone knows an event will happen, then it will happen.
4. by premise 3, if someone knows an event will happen, then it will necessarily happen.
5. Thus, every event (including future events) happen necessarily.

so basically, he thought that people do have free will but it is determined by god at the same time. future events remain completely free (free will) but because of god, future contingent events have the certainity which makes them objects of knowledge, and according to Bothius' proof, necessary events.

The problem with this is that it suggests that there's some kind of predetermined destiny. I would like to think I have some control over my life; even as I decide to type these words they could change at moments or thought's notice. It would be mundayne if our lives were already scripted for us.

I have faith in the capacities of humanity. That's why I believe that we can acheive a peaceful and better world, but I also know through myself, that all humans have the capacity to make the wrong choices too. I see the evidence of us moving towards a more interconnected and ethical culture concerned with the well-being of all humanity at a rapid rate, but I can also see that people are too neurotic, prejudiced and greedy to want a better world. The future is not certain, but everyone that crosses our paths is meant to hear our unique truths that may or or may not change the world for the better. Through the power of love and intention we can make the means justify the end.

P.S. Truth is a pathless land. It's not to be understood by any system. Isn't a life viewed as "unaffected by want" a want in itself? A path of "deceit unaffected by want" implies there's a goal of a static end. Truth is something to be looked at and listen to in every feeling no matter how trivial or transient. The fact is that truth is life and life has no permanancy. When you take life for granted and live it through a fragement of it you are not living. It's impossible to know all because knowledge, thought and experience are all limited. A man that says he "knows" is like a living death, but one that says he doesn't know, that tries to figure it out by saying "I don't know" rather than using their own prejudices or biases, is a living truth. So please open your minds to allow the possibility of spirtuality and increase your comprehension about life and the world.

 

[spirit crusher]

 

[Deadly]

aw man..; so much text, so little thread... -_-'

it's not about the amount of text you write, it's about the content.

hereby, i suggest that all posts are to be limited to 3 lines MAX

gogogo!

ontopic: astrology -> nay, spiritual -> in between yey-nay

 

[Mystique1721]

Sorry, but this is definitely wrong. The proof is evident because every new scientific discovery was unknown before it was known. How did these people think that their theories were right when they wern't proven yet? It was because they had a hunch, an intuition that told them to have faith. We are not faith itself, but instruments of it. Usually no new discovery is acheived without a touch of madness and faith.

I think you are using the wrong analogy here. Scientists who have a hunch and who form hypothoses are actually able to either prove or disprove the thing which they have "faith" on. As you have already said, your beliefs cannot be proven (nor really disproven for that matter), so your belief is different than the approach the scientists are taking. In fact, I think it's wrong to use the word "faith" in a scientific context all together. that's why there are words such as "theory" and "hypothesis".

I thought everyone heard that little voice talking to them inside? I find it hard to believe that you don't.

...I don't get it. are you being sarcastic here?

That was in response to you saying that the world is really nothingness. If we regressed into believing that the world had no meanings, we would be prone to make the same mistakes again. Our mistakes are the cutting edge between success and failure. Without having made our mistakes, we wouldn't be where we are in terms of the progress of our ethics and spirituality today.

I completely disagree. We would in fact be progressing if we come closer to accept nothingness. Right now, most human are confused and lost and have absolutely no idea what to do with themselves, and hence they cling on to all these fantasies in order to make themselves feel better. but look at them- what is better? the world is getting worse everyday. we are closer to destroying ourselves today than we have ever been in the history of civilization.

I'm trying to support my hypothesis, not claiming it to be true. If descions to love and have emotional stability were chemical reactions, wouldn't someone had figured out the formula to happiness through science by now?

they did. it's called prescription drugs. and people are a mess because of it.

The problem with this is that it suggests that there's some kind of predetermined destiny. I would like to think I have some control over my life; even as I decide to type these words they could change at moments or thought's notice. It would be mundayne if our lives were already scripted for us.

hmm...I think you should read about Boethius. You didn't exactly grasp what I meant. There is free will. you do have freedom to choose your "destiny", but god already knows what you will choose. (all this is medeival philosophy)

I have faith in the capacities of humanity. That's why I believe that we can acheive a peaceful and better world, but I also know through myself, that all humans have the capacity to make the wrong choices too. I see the evidence of us moving towards a more interconnected and ethical culture concerned with the well-being of all humanity at a rapid rate, but I can also see that people are too neurotic, prejudiced and greedy to want a better world. The future is not certain, but everyone that crosses our paths is meant to hear our unique truths that may or or may not change the world for the better. Through the power of love and intention we can make the means justify the end.

I really don't understand what this fascination is with the "power of love". I mean, love is a very personal thing, and the thought that "love" will save the world, is a very silly and impractical one. You cannot possibly go around "lovïng" everybody in this world. Hate, greed, sadness, seeking vengous...these are all human characteristics. And it would be impossible for us to replace all these emotions with "love". Unless the whole human race is constantly on some drug like ecstacy. which is obviously ridiculous.

P.S. Truth is a pathless land. It's not to be understood by any system. Isn't a life viewed as "unaffected by want" a want in itself? A path of "deceit unaffected by want" implies there's a goal of a static end. Truth is something to be looked at and listen to in every feeling no matter how trivial or transient. The fact is that truth is life and life has no permanancy. When you take life for granted and live it through a fragement of it you are not living. It's impossible to know all because knowledge, thought and experience are all limited. A man that says he "knows" is like a living death, but one that says he doesn't know, that tries to figure it out by saying "I don't know" rather than using their own prejudices or biases, is a living truth. So please open your minds to allow the possibility of spirtuality and increase your comprehension about life and the world.

Yes! I really like this last part of your post. "True" knowledge can never be achieved. Yet, people keep on searching for it through "spirituality" and religion.

Just keep in mind that I have read everything you have to say, and just because I don't agree with it, doesn't make me (or us, for the other people who have briefly joined in) closed-minded. Your views are just not attractive to me, in fact, and excuse me for being blunt, some of the things you have written have repulsed my intellect. All this stuff about following the path of love in order to attain an ideal world sounds pretty ridiculous to me. Not to mention the little passage you wrote about grace and the "saved" ones.

 

[Mystique1721]

btw, if this discussion continues, we should move it here http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/cob-off-topic/395155-philosophy-discuss-here.html

 

[Leandro]

Sorry, but this is definitely wrong. The proof is evident because every new scientific discovery was unknown before it was known. How did these people think that their theories were right when they wern't proven yet? It was because they had a hunch, an intuition that told them to have faith. We are not faith itself, but instruments of it. Usually no new discovery is acheived without a touch of madness and faith.

What about the mistakes they made? There was a fourth law of Kepler. Wanna know why you never heard of it? It was WRONG.

If descions to love and have emotional stability were chemical reactions, wouldn't someone had figured out the formula to happiness through science by now? Claiming that choosing how we want to feel arises through some specific chemical reaction has no proof either. If science did hold the key to knowing what makes people choose to do things, please let me know.

Chemical reactions? Ok:

Dopamine. The hormone of euphoria.
Serotonine. The hormone of well being.
Fenylethylamine. The hormone of love.

By the way, wasn't it you who said that just because something is difficult to figure out we shouldn't give up? Coming up with spiritual expanlations to stuff you don't understand is exactly that: giving up.

The problem with this is that it suggests that there's some kind of predetermined destiny. I would like to think I have some control over my life; even as I decide to type these words they could change at moments or thought's notice. It would be mundayne if our lives were already scripted for us.

News flash, the universe couldn't care less about what you would like to think. The truth is unnaffected by want.

P.S. Truth is a pathless land. It's not to be understood by any system. Isn't a life viewed as "unaffected by want" a want in itself?

Um... no? Not at all.

A path of "deceit unaffected by want" implies there's a goal of a static end.

Oh, you misquoted! There was no 'deceit' in the original!

It's impossible to know all because knowledge, thought and experience are all limited. A man that says he "knows" is like a living death, but one that says he doesn't know, that tries to figure it out by saying "I don't know" rather than using their own prejudices or biases, is a living truth.

Then we are in agreement! The first man is a spiritual person. The second man is a scientist.

So please open your minds to allow the possibility of spirtuality and increase your comprehension about life and the world.

If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out.
See, thing is. Science is not *denial* of all things 'spiritual'. It's simply... "you think something is true? By all means, test it!". If you can show me one example in the history of the world of a spiritual concept resisting a rigorous test, I'll "open my mind". Until then, no.

 

[Noble Viking]

Spirituality isn't giving up, it's an attempt at understanding rather than trying to ignore what we can't measure through science. Scientific knowledge can tell you things about the world, but nothing about sensitivity. Perscription drugs do not guarantee happiness either because it is not sustained without the aid of the drug. If we learn to love ourselves and realize that our time on earth is limited and that every moment we spend living negatively can never be returned, we might be able to learn to return to love and happiness when we are down. Just like how we get better at music as an art, love is also an art: it takes practice

"All we are is a result of what we have thought". The universe does respond to what we want; that's how we came up with languages, social norms, national borders and politics. Jealousy, greed, hate, envy are all a result of millions of years of conditioning of what we have thought or been trained to think. Just as we have been conditioned one way, we could be conditioned another: that is to teach ourselves to use the benefit of the doubt, that people given the circumstances were doing the best they could at the time, that the same capacities of fear, anger, sorrow and love are reflected in all human beings, and that we could utilize those capacities of love to condition ourselves in a new way.

I really don't personally matter in this conversation, it's the information conveyed here that does. I love how some of you have kept good dialouge open and thanks for taking the time to read the posts.

 

[sadistik necrofiend]

I am a leo and my fiancee is a leo too. Her B-Day is the day after mine.

We get along quite well although there can be some rumbles.

 

[vikk]

does Extraterrestrial life exists? Trillions of planets exists in the universe, but there is no proof that exist any sort of Extraterrestrial life there.

what can't be proved, exists?