I see your points here but I think what you are also describing is the artistry as opposed to the mix on V. just my .02
Over the years I have moved to the opinion that the overall picture painted by the sonic landscape is far more important than any individual instrument's sound in isolation (which is, in truth, a ridiculous way to look at things, seeing there is no value to having that sound in isolation; there is only value in context). As a guitarist I used to try to separate out the guitar sound from everything else and judge it on that basis. In that respect some of the rhythm sounds achieved on PL and IC are fantastic. But now I tend to care about the guitar sound in context, which for me has made a lot of "crummy" guitars through "crappy" amps valuable and excellent.
This is why I think V has by far the best sound. It is the most unique and instantly identifiable, and most importantly it is perfectly suited to the story and mood of the album. The sound on V instantly evokes for me certain colors and textures and emotions associated with that album/story. IC sounds like a well produced album by a metal band; V sounds like V. One of the best achievements in sound, I find, is when you almost lose cognizance of the individual instruments and instead hear the album in textures. On DWoT I could tell you exactly what the guitar is doing at any given moment; on V, despite having listened to that album a billion times, there are points where I only know what the MUSIC is doing. To me, that is what defines good sound--when you stop picturing musicians playing their instruments in a recording studio you are in the presence of a good sound (certain inapplicable genres excluded of course).
I understand what you are saying here and I agree with you by and large. I am aguitar player as well and I value your point re: technical excellence outside of a context. V sounds good to me too; although I like IC better (I realize I may be in the minority here). However.... I think this is your point:. The mix is better for V because of the symphonic interludes and orchestration. I think that mix captures those elements very well. Also, the song "Evolution: Grand Design" is very unique and good in that it captures the symphonic elements well to do them justice but also the guitars have a unique mix and a unique effect; or studio effect: I think it is the tail end of the guitar solo when they come back into the main motif. That is really done well, unique in that I havent heard it, or heard it done that well.
V, by contrast, is a very unique style of album. The guitar plays a supportive role almost never seen in metal, which tends to push guitar to the front at all times. At all times the keys shine through. And getting the symphonic segues to jive with the regular material is quite a task, and it is brilliantly accomplished. I also love the treatment of the vocals; the way the vocals are layered in the chorus of Evolution gives this great fullness that does not sound forced or obvious. When you hear that you don't think "there's Russell Allen with the band doing harmonies"... you think "there is a great vocal part." The build up to the primary bridge ("Now we shall live forever") in particular is perfectly done, and what a difficult task to get that all to balance so well given the complexity of the arrangement, number of instruments, and the fact that you have to transition into a pretty serious tonal shift.
V is a very unique style of album. The guitar plays a supportive role almost never seen in metal, which tends to push guitar to the front at all times. At all times the keys shine through.
I couldn't agree more. These are some of the aspects about V that I love, since they were unique. The guitar, bass, keys, drums, and vocals were each 20% of the sound (well, maybe the keys were a little more). I can't honestly name a metal album (or really any album, for that matter) that had this mix and balance.
I just think it's interesting in the world of metal. Unfortunately, when it comes to recent Symphony X, the keys, bass, and drums (in that order) have been pushed to the background in favor of the "whole band takes a break while the guitar plays a cool riff that leads into the next section" mentality.
For example, aside from the intro to "When All Is Lost," can anyone name a significant moment on Iconoclast where the guitar is not playing? Didn't think so. Also, count how many times on the album that only the guitar is playing (there's one of these in almost every song). Their other albums (Paradise Lost to a lesser extent) are littered with guitar-free moments. This is what made Symphony X unique; the guitar was a team player as opposed to being center stage.
Why do you think this has changed?
To be honest, I think that the band simply wants to sell more albums, and guitar-driven, aggressive metal has always been the norm. Now you can all yell "sellout" all you want, but it's not like they're pulling a Metallica and completely changing their core sound. They're altering bits and pieces of it to make it more marketable, yes, but the change isn't nearly as drastic.
These guys are in their 40s, and at some point I think they'd love to be able to live solely off of their music (since they obviously enjoy writing, recording, and playing it). MJR has even stated (I wish I had the link; it was an audio interview) that he prefers writing and playing the "longer, more progressive pieces." However, I do think that he has a blast playing the shorter, more straightforward songs of recent years live, too. Whether this has to do with the increased amount of guitar parts, I'm not sure. He never struck me as having an ego.
Do I think the other guys are embracing this direction? I'm not sure. Russ seems to love it, but I'm not sure how P, Lepond, and Rullo feel. I'm pretty sure Jason prefers the more intricate pieces, P is a classical piano player ('nuff said), and Lepond... well, Lepond is probably okay with it. I'd really love to hear an interview with just Pinnella about the band's recent years, and him being pushed back in the sound. The man hardly ever speaks! I'm kinda sick of just hearing from MJR and Russ, even if they are awesome. It's almost as if the other three guys in the band are expendable; from what I can see, MJR and Russ get 99% of the attention from fans and media.
I find it hard for someone to write such a masterpiece and think it is crap..
To be honest, I think that the band simply wants to sell more albums, and guitar-driven, aggressive metal has always been the norm. Now you can all yell "sellout" all you want, but it's not like they're pulling a Metallica and completely changing their core sound. They're altering bits and pieces of it to make it more marketable, yes, but the change isn't nearly as drastic.
These guys are in their 40s, and at some point I think they'd love to be able to live solely off of their music (since they obviously enjoy writing, recording, and playing it). MJR has even stated (I wish I had the link; it was an audio interview) that he prefers writing and playing the "longer, more progressive pieces." However, I do think that he has a blast playing the shorter, more straightforward songs of recent years live, too. Whether this has to do with the increased amount of guitar parts, I'm not sure. He never struck me as having an ego.
Do I think the other guys are embracing this direction? I'm not sure. Russ seems to love it, but I'm not sure how P, Lepond, and Rullo feel. I'm pretty sure Jason prefers the more intricate pieces, P is a classical piano player ('nuff said), and Lepond... well, Lepond is probably okay with it. I'd really love to hear an interview with just Pinnella about the band's recent years, and him being pushed back in the sound. The man hardly ever speaks! I'm kinda sick of just hearing from MJR and Russ, even if they are awesome. It's almost as if the other three guys in the band are expendable; from what I can see, MJR and Russ get 99% of the attention from fans and media.
lmaoI'm honestly hoping that Iconoclast is their musical version of a mid-life crisis red sports car.
lmao
i wish that as well also, but i dont think that´s what´s happening. New label, new musical requirements and that´s all i think.
They will try to stay true to what they want to write but they will have to cave in a little cause well, that´s obviously part of the deal they sign with Nuclear Blast, as they tend to release heavier stuff rather than prog.
And to comment about what you´ve all been saying about V. Man, i couldn´t have said that better, you stole the thoughts i could never put into words when explaining my friend why i think V is the best and not Odyssey or DWoT.
(notice that neither PL or IC are part of our discussion cause we all know those arent their best albums, and thats a fact).