Best Sound yet?
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SyXified
Member
I get where you are coming from on this, but it is a difficult task to draw a definitive line between the two concepts. I tend to think the best way to define a "good mix" is a mix that best communicates the purpose of the work. In that sense, IC and V are both good mixes because they are appropriate (whereas mixing a traditional jazz album like a metal album would be bad). But distinguishing between those mixes to say "which is the best sound" gets a bit hairier, and I tend to think the loftier the purpose of the work (and therefore the level of skill associated with being able to create a good mix) the more credit the sound deserves.
Of course, codifying quality in an art like this is always difficult, even though it is clear some manner of assessing quality must be appropriate and applicable.
I understand what you are saying here and I agree with you by and large. I am aguitar player as well and I value your point re: technical excellence outside of a context. V sounds good to me too; although I like IC better (I realize I may be in the minority here). However.... I think this is your point:. The mix is better for V because of the symphonic interludes and orchestration. I think that mix captures those elements very well. Also, the song "Evolution: Grand Design" is very unique and good in that it captures the symphonic elements well to do them justice but also the guitars have a unique mix and a unique effect; or studio effect: I think it is the tail end of the guitar solo when they come back into the main motif. That is really done well, unique in that I havent heard it, or heard it done that well.
SyXified
Member
Yes, we are on the same page. To put it another way: I think it would be much easier to produce/mix IC well than it would be to produce/mix V. IC is not particularly unique or extravagant in the production techniques used. Though it sounds quite good, it is also produced in a manner similar to the production of other metal albums in this genre.
V, by contrast, is a very unique style of album. The guitar plays a supportive role almost never seen in metal, which tends to push guitar to the front at all times. At all times the keys shine through. And getting the symphonic segues to jive with the regular material is quite a task, and it is brilliantly accomplished. I also love the treatment of the vocals; the way the vocals are layered in the chorus of Evolution gives this great fullness that does not sound forced or obvious. When you hear that you don't think "there's Russell Allen with the band doing harmonies"... you think "there is a great vocal part." The build up to the primary bridge ("Now we shall live forever") in particular is perfectly done, and what a difficult task to get that all to balance so well given the complexity of the arrangement, number of instruments, and the fact that you have to transition into a pretty serious tonal shift.
Prog is King
Member
Outstanding explanation!
This is why V is one of the best albums ever made IMO, if not THE best. I have listened to V hundreds
and hundreds of times and I never get tired of it. Nor will I ever. What you sat about MJR's guitar work
is so true. He accompanies the others so well and at the same time comes forward at the right times.
I have never heard such consistent guitar on one album. And I love the keys also. And Russell is just...
well... Russell.
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
Detective Clarence Beauregard
Dehumanized
I couldn't agree more. These are some of the aspects about V that I love, since they were unique. The guitar, bass, keys, drums, and vocals were each 20% of the sound (well, maybe the keys were a little more). I can't honestly name a metal album (or really any album, for that matter) that had this mix and balance.
I just think it's interesting in the world of metal. Unfortunately, when it comes to recent Symphony X, the keys, bass, and drums (in that order) have been pushed to the background in favor of the "whole band takes a break while the guitar plays a cool riff that leads into the next section" mentality.
For example, aside from the intro to "When All Is Lost," can anyone name a significant moment on Iconoclast where the guitar is not playing? Didn't think so. Also, count how many times on the album that only the guitar is playing (there's one of these in almost every song). Their other albums (Paradise Lost to a lesser extent) are littered with guitar-free moments. This is what made Symphony X unique; the guitar was a team player as opposed to being center stage.
Prog is King
Member
Detective Clarence Beauregard
Dehumanized
To be honest, I think that the band simply wants to sell more albums, and guitar-driven, aggressive metal has always been the norm. Now you can all yell "sellout" all you want, but it's not like they're pulling a Metallica and completely changing their core sound. They're altering bits and pieces of it to make it more marketable, yes, but the change isn't nearly as drastic.
These guys are in their 40s, and at some point I think they'd love to be able to live solely off of their music (since they obviously enjoy writing, recording, and playing it). MJR has even stated (I wish I had the link; it was an audio interview) that he prefers writing and playing the "longer, more progressive pieces." However, I do think that he has a blast playing the shorter, more straightforward songs of recent years live, too. Whether this has to do with the increased amount of guitar parts, I'm not sure. He never struck me as having an ego.
Do I think the other guys are embracing this direction? I'm not sure. Russ seems to love it, but I'm not sure how P, Lepond, and Rullo feel. I'm pretty sure Jason prefers the more intricate pieces, P is a classical piano player ('nuff said), and Lepond... well, Lepond is probably okay with it. I'd really love to hear an interview with just Pinnella about the band's recent years, and him being pushed back in the sound. The man hardly ever speaks! I'm kinda sick of just hearing from MJR and Russ, even if they are awesome. It's almost as if the other three guys in the band are expendable; from what I can see, MJR and Russ get 99% of the attention from fans and media.
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
There was that recent interview where one of the questions wanted each memeber to say which SyX album was their favorite. I can't remember whether it was Lepond or Rullo, but whichever it was they were the only one to state V as their favorite. It was sad because when they said V all the other members were like super surprised that someone though V was the best, as if they all though V was the worst album or something. I find it hard for someone to write such a masterpiece and think it is crap..
Well I don't think they think it's "crap". That'd be weird. But yeah. They were a bit surprised, especially Russ (who's probably the one who's into the heavy/newer stuff the most). I think it's simply because they classify it as OLD material, because they usually tend to have newer/fresher material as their favorite. They weren't like "wow that crap is your favorite?" but more like "wow that's still your favorite?". Just my opinion.
SyXified
Member
I think your point about them being in their 40s and wanting to be able to eventually retire, rather than being the post office worker who gets "hey, weren't you Michael Romeo?" on occasion. The style Symphony X plays now is far more appealing to the mainstream metal audience; there is no denying that it has done wonders for their popularity. Also, I bet that material is a lot of fun to play live--a lot less prep work, no lengthy segments where your instrument isn't playing at all, and the crowd gets into it (whereas if you were playing many tracks off V you would see 6 die hard Symphony X fans tamely enjoying themselves and the rest of the crowd somewhat baffled by and large).
In terms of the band not liking V, that's ridiculous and must be a deliberate lie for some reason. Maybe they decided that crooning over V is not moving forward or is like admitting you cannot live up to the caliber of a previous work. I simply cannot fathom that anyone could compose V, which is so intricate and detailed and nuanced, and proceed to write Dehumanized and think "yeah, same ballpark, personal preference."
EyeballKid
Shyamalan'd
Everything the Detective and SyXified have said is right on the money, I think. With their current age, we'll see how long they continue in this direction. I'm honestly hoping that Iconoclast is their musical version of a mid-life crisis red sports car.
lmaoi wish that as well also, but i dont think that´s what´s happening. New label, new musical requirements and that´s all i think.
They will try to stay true to what they want to write but they will have to cave in a little cause well, that´s obviously part of the deal they sign with Nuclear Blast, as they tend to release heavier stuff rather than prog.
And to comment about what you´ve all been saying about V. Man, i couldn´t have said that better, you stole the thoughts i could never put into words when explaining my friend why i think V is the best and not Odyssey or DWoT.
(notice that neither PL or IC are part of our discussion cause we all know those arent their best albums, and thats a fact).
i wish that as well also, but i dont think that´s what´s happening. New label, new musical requirements and that´s all i think.
They will try to stay true to what they want to write but they will have to cave in a little cause well, that´s obviously part of the deal they sign with Nuclear Blast, as they tend to release heavier stuff rather than prog.
And to comment about what you´ve all been saying about V. Man, i couldn´t have said that better, you stole the thoughts i could never put into words when explaining my friend why i think V is the best and not Odyssey or DWoT.
(notice that neither PL or IC are part of our discussion cause we all know those arent their best albums, and thats a fact).
If we were to narrow things down to a song that represents true Sym X, I would have to say it would be "Of Sins and Shadows".
I dont know about that man, there are so many sides of SX music that just one song couldnt show you the whole picture.
But, if u rushed me i´d have to say "The Edge of Forever" or "Rediscovery II".
But, if u rushed me i´d have to say "The Edge of Forever" or "Rediscovery II".
^ , ^^ - Awakenings is quite a complete SX package. Covers pretty much all RA vocal styles, amazing solos from both Pinnella and Romeo, odd meter grooves and a sick chorus.
Of Sins And Shadows is maybe a bit too short for SX and greatly promotes the neoclassical nature of DWoT so it's really not that describing. Rediscovery has quite unusual vocal melodies and it's also kinda light and soft for them. V as an album even sounds very, very different than other SX albums bar Twilight.
Of Sins And Shadows is maybe a bit too short for SX and greatly promotes the neoclassical nature of DWoT so it's really not that describing. Rediscovery has quite unusual vocal melodies and it's also kinda light and soft for them. V as an album even sounds very, very different than other SX albums bar Twilight.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Iconoclast and PL are crushed to zero dynamics. Loudness war victims.
The Odyssey was pretty well done, but V has the best sound. Metal suffers greatly from overcompression.
The Odyssey was pretty well done, but V has the best sound. Metal suffers greatly from overcompression.
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