ive read in a few fan interviews on various web sites that they think deliverance is less complex than the previous albums. i find that kind of an ignorant statement, i think this might be the most complex or atleast very near the top, and not just the guitars, everything, drums/bass...even ackerfeldt stated that this was the most complex work that hes done. people think that just because theyre isnt this grand atmoshpere mixed into the songs like on blackwater park, or major guitar layering at every distorted part, that the songs are "simple" i cannot agree with this...what does everyone think?
complexity of deliverance
- Thread starter thirdeye
- Start date
I haven't heard the album yet, but to be honest I'm not all that interested in its complexity. Its substance matters more to me. I've heard some very heavily complex stuff and didn't like some of it. I think Opeth balances things out perfectly, giving everything its place.
Just my 2 cents.
NP: Nevermore - Dreaming Neon Black
Just my 2 cents.
NP: Nevermore - Dreaming Neon Black
They do seem to layer stuff less than on BWP (such as that crazy part in Bleak with like 4 melodies going), and the structure seems a little more methodical. So yeah, I'd agree it's less complex, but it's not much of a difference. The drumming is busier and there are more weird rhythms, so it gains a different kind of complexity.
Really, anyone saying the songs are simple just has weird ideas about music.
Really, anyone saying the songs are simple just has weird ideas about music.
brightoffski
Abstraction of I
The complexity of the album really hit me on the second listen. However it now seems to reside in different aspects of the overall songs comparing them to other albums. I find it hard to put my finger on it exactly, but I agree that this album is their most complex in a sense and definitely the most progressive! I sense a huge development of some of the ideas that started to appear on Blackwater Park so I see a strong connection between the two.
thrideye, I think a lot of people are confused about the absence of the 'grand atmosphere' etc in the other albums, which I think can be interpreted as a different kind of complexity if that is what the emphasis is placed on. I really like Deliverance for different reasons to that of the other Opeth albums, so I think it may grow to become somewhat of a classic!
thrideye, I think a lot of people are confused about the absence of the 'grand atmosphere' etc in the other albums, which I think can be interpreted as a different kind of complexity if that is what the emphasis is placed on. I really like Deliverance for different reasons to that of the other Opeth albums, so I think it may grow to become somewhat of a classic!
drumming is more complex - harmonies are more complex - song structure is less complex - overall production is less complex - these are all good things.
They have some "odd" rhythms going on at times (eg. The Deliverance intro riff is in 7/8), but other than time sigs, and drumming, I don't personally hear anything too complex.
Actually, I think I may know what Mike means: all those proggy interludes and changes are complex in the sense that you're taking all these different themes and connecting them together. I think the guitar parts, while they don't sound too terribly complex may be a bit moreso than BWP because of the lack of layering, i.e. they don't have to play many non-technical parts to end up with one overall technical piece, if that makes any sense.
But then again, I've been listening to the album for the music rather than the complexity.
Just my $0.02.
Actually, I think I may know what Mike means: all those proggy interludes and changes are complex in the sense that you're taking all these different themes and connecting them together. I think the guitar parts, while they don't sound too terribly complex may be a bit moreso than BWP because of the lack of layering, i.e. they don't have to play many non-technical parts to end up with one overall technical piece, if that makes any sense.
But then again, I've been listening to the album for the music rather than the complexity.
Just my $0.02.
shivering corpse
Ty Cobbb
probably musically speaking it's not quite as complex, but the structure of the songs are pretty complex and at times almost nonsensical, but i don't mean that in a bad way, i fucking love deliverance
The solos to me seem much more complex and great. Seriously, the highlight of the album for me is the solos. Especially the second one in Deliverance... PERFECTION!!
Edit: Typo.
Edit: Typo.
Bleakest Harvest
\m/Misanthropic Hippy\m/
Thats my favourite solo too! The way it hits the last note and the songs turns acoustic before he sings the 'deliverance, deliverance' part is...in a word...
...magical!
YaYo
whendaydescends.com
- May 6, 2001
- 4,458
- 23
- 38
To me Deliverance sounds like it comes from a one guitar band who do some overdubs occasionally. The riffs seem pretty complex in themselves, but it just sounds like it was written by one guy by himself with little thought for the other guitarist (which is what happened), so many of the riffs could have been split across the two guitars to great effect, creating almost the same feel yet more interesting and more depth... or 2nd guitar parts added to added to the riff... but they didnt do these things. And when they do use twin guitars it seems to be almost always a high and low guitar.. for a band that works on weird riffs with dissonance and such you'd think they'd take advantage of the two guitars.
That kind of thing does serve well to make the layered parts sound even more layered though, possibly thats what they were going for, probably wanted stuff that was more in your face.
Overall, its more complex in some ways (drumming definitely), less complex in others (repetition becoming even stronger.. and their lack of variation on the repetitions shows up even more when they repeat the same riff for 4 minutes, the things they could achieve if they realised a riff neednt be set in stone and repeated without change).
Solos are more complex, in terms of speed and technique, and a few varied styles as well.
Acoustic stuff is getting pretty uncomplex (chord work with interesting drums) except a few moments.
The melodic layered moments arent to complex, they just drop into fairly standard chord work (for them).
More complex some ways, less complex in others... exactly what you'd expect from any album
That kind of thing does serve well to make the layered parts sound even more layered though, possibly thats what they were going for, probably wanted stuff that was more in your face.
Overall, its more complex in some ways (drumming definitely), less complex in others (repetition becoming even stronger.. and their lack of variation on the repetitions shows up even more when they repeat the same riff for 4 minutes, the things they could achieve if they realised a riff neednt be set in stone and repeated without change).
Solos are more complex, in terms of speed and technique, and a few varied styles as well.
Acoustic stuff is getting pretty uncomplex (chord work with interesting drums) except a few moments.
The melodic layered moments arent to complex, they just drop into fairly standard chord work (for them).
More complex some ways, less complex in others... exactly what you'd expect from any album
Duvall
Ia!
Deliverance hits me a little differently than other Opeth albums. I hear elements from all incarnations and stages of Opeth. I hear passages that remind me of writing on albums past.
The acoustic/soft passages have a very different feel as well. They remind me more of a PT kind of sound (especially the aural exciter for the "a fair judgement deserved" part - or am I wrong?). I like it, but there doesn't seem to be too much Akerfeldt poking through. There's no soulful mourning like Morningrise, and no anger-charged conviction like MAYH and Still Life. That being said, this album is both heavier and softer than its predecessors. The complexity overall reminds me of MAYH, in the use of guitars (and how the two play off each other) - except the drumming has been kicked up a notch or three.
I'm broke-ass, so that was my 1 cent.
Definitely a step forward for Opeth, and I'm REALLY sharvin' for Damnation.
The acoustic/soft passages have a very different feel as well. They remind me more of a PT kind of sound (especially the aural exciter for the "a fair judgement deserved" part - or am I wrong?). I like it, but there doesn't seem to be too much Akerfeldt poking through. There's no soulful mourning like Morningrise, and no anger-charged conviction like MAYH and Still Life. That being said, this album is both heavier and softer than its predecessors. The complexity overall reminds me of MAYH, in the use of guitars (and how the two play off each other) - except the drumming has been kicked up a notch or three.
I'm broke-ass, so that was my 1 cent.
Definitely a step forward for Opeth, and I'm REALLY sharvin' for Damnation.
Staffan
Soelen gaaer bag aase ned
Lina
kickass elizabethan style
I was listening to D1 last night. Landlords been away so I finally got to crank it for all it's worth. 
Sounds really good...even at 33!
I hear PT influences for sure. I hear parts here and there that are MAYHish. When I first got the album and saw all the lyrics, I was like and wondered if all the kind words of Mike's lyrics in the past had made him concentrate more this time resulting in more. I don't hear as much layering as I did in SL and BWP. I prefer one meaty layer. Like D1!
Sounds really good...even at 33! I hear PT influences for sure. I hear parts here and there that are MAYHish. When I first got the album and saw all the lyrics, I was like
and wondered if all the kind words of Mike's lyrics in the past had made him concentrate more this time resulting in more. I don't hear as much layering as I did in SL and BWP. I prefer one meaty layer. Like D1!what do you guys have to say about mike saying in an interview that this was his most complex work? after all he is the writer, and would probably know.
It may be his most complex work, but it sure seems like Peter had little to no involvement, which makes the overall result seem less complex (to me).
Originally posted by Schraiber
The solos to me seem much more complex and great. Seriously, the highlight of the album for me is the solos. Especially the second one in Deliverance... PERFECTION!!
The first one is my favorite from that song, actually. Somehow with the riff it's played over, it's magic. Other favorites are the first in Wreath and the medieval one in A Fair Judgement. I do love all of the solos on this album, though. I don't think they've ever done one that just seems empty and tasteless.
Iblys
www.lucidfalls.com
I can't really say I care about how complex the music is, as long as it's not insultingly simple (i.e. pop music). Some of my favourite Opeth moments are relatively straightforward (i.e. the very end of Demon of the Fall. I don't think the complexity of the music matters much. If you're listening to the music to admire the complexity, you're missing the point of it... it's not trying to make you count beats and sub-beats, it's meant to MOVE you, make you feel something.
Do you ever hear people criticising M.C. Escher for (usually) only painting in black and white? No. That would be stupid.
Complexity is good if it enhances feeling, and quite often it does. Sometimes a jarring 7/4 rythm throws you about the way the artist intended and evokes a certain emotion... sometimes whole-tone stuff can create an almost comical mood.
I guess what I'm saying is that a song being incredibly complex doesn't neccessarily make it "good music". It might. But it doesn't do it automatically. There are too many other factors at play.
But it is quite possible to be complex without being remarkable or emotive - it is possible to just be complex for the sake of it. It is THAT kind of music that I don't like (example that comes to mind is Gorguts... yeah, maybe your music is in 23.75/19 and you're playing the Venezualan 8.5 tone inverted scale over a dissonant arythmic atonal eight-string riff, but you have yet to make me feel anything).
I didn't think the point of good music was to be complex, I thought it was to be artistic.
/end rant
Oh yeah, btw, I thought Deliverance was about as complex as most of Opeth's recent work. I also thought it was better than Blackwater Park.
Do you ever hear people criticising M.C. Escher for (usually) only painting in black and white? No. That would be stupid.
Complexity is good if it enhances feeling, and quite often it does. Sometimes a jarring 7/4 rythm throws you about the way the artist intended and evokes a certain emotion... sometimes whole-tone stuff can create an almost comical mood.
I guess what I'm saying is that a song being incredibly complex doesn't neccessarily make it "good music". It might. But it doesn't do it automatically. There are too many other factors at play.
But it is quite possible to be complex without being remarkable or emotive - it is possible to just be complex for the sake of it. It is THAT kind of music that I don't like (example that comes to mind is Gorguts... yeah, maybe your music is in 23.75/19 and you're playing the Venezualan 8.5 tone inverted scale over a dissonant arythmic atonal eight-string riff, but you have yet to make me feel anything).
I didn't think the point of good music was to be complex, I thought it was to be artistic.
/end rant
Oh yeah, btw, I thought Deliverance was about as complex as most of Opeth's recent work. I also thought it was better than Blackwater Park.
