Controversial opinions on metal

Then stop using terms like "bad" and "good"; instead, say: "This production fits this album."

People judge vocalists the same way; we've had the debate on this forum about whether Ozzy is a good singer. For all intents and purposes, he works... with Sabbath. He wouldn't last past the preliminaries on American Idol.

I don't want to judge production in a vacuum; but there are standards of good and bad production. And furthermore, I'm not saying that albums with bad production should try it differently; but it still stands that bad production can clearly be distinguished from good.

Someone can listen to that Darkthrone album and think, "Man, this production stinks, but I love the vibe it gives off." And that's fine! But you're deluding yourself if you think you're listening to "good production."
 
You're deluding yourself if you think anything music related can be placed into a black and white dynamic like you're doing.
 
If more black metal sounded like Grand Declaration of War production-wise I'd pretty listen to more of it. I lurve me some uber-sterility.

And A Night at the Opera definitely doesn't have bad production. The double bass is probably overly loud, yes, but "drown[ing] out" is an extreme exaggeration. It's not really a guitar-riff oriented album in the first place, and the keyboards and "symphonic" elements are a huge part of what makes that album well-known in their discography, and if you think they are buried, listen again.
 
Einherjar86 said:
Then stop using terms like "bad" and "good"; instead, say: "This production fits this album."
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Why? "Fits the music" is equatable to "good". I could just as easily say "stop using terms like 'bad' or 'good', use 'raw' or 'glossy' instead."

People judge vocalists the same way; we've had the debate on this forum about whether Ozzy is a good singer. For all intents and purposes, he works... with Sabbath. He wouldn't last past the preliminaries on American Idol.
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Ozzy is (or was, during his time in Sabbath, and first couple solo albums) a good vocalist. He may not have been technically skilled but I would not listen to his voice and say that he was a poor vocalist. But this is besides the point, as I do not feel vocals and production are comparable.

I don't want to judge production in a vacuum; but there are standards of good and bad production. And furthermore, I'm not saying that albums with bad production should try it differently; but it still stands that bad production can clearly be distinguished from good.
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You don't want to judge production in a vacuum, but you are; that's exactly what you are doing. You are judging it independently of the music it is on, and ignoring the fact that different bands have different standards for what constitutes "good production". There is no universal set of standards.

Someone can listen to that Darkthrone album and think, "Man, this production stinks, but I love the vibe it gives off." And that's fine! But you're deluding yourself if you think you're listening to "good production."
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If someone were to listen to TH and say "that production stinks", I would tell them they had absolutely no clue what they were talking about, since the fact that the "vibe it gives" is mostly due to the production. It would be like me saying (if you do not play Magic: The Gathering, I apologize, but it is the first analogy that springs to mind) "Man, the mana system stinks... 10 out of 10 game though, love it!". It is inherently nonsensical, due to the fact that much like how one of the integral aspects of Transilvanian Hunger is the production; one of the core, integral aspects of Magic is the overarching mana system. If you were to remove that, you would have a bastardized, inferior game. You'd have Yugioh, basically.
 
Jesus christ, don't you guys understand? I'm not saying any of the production is first class, studio production that is on mainstream artists. 2nd wave general have a more raw sound and sometimes GO for a lower production sound like on burzums Filosofem. It does set the mood and the atmosphere more, but it became a tradition to have the low production. First wave BM is obviously not the best production wise, I never said that.
 
Mort Divine said:
You're deluding yourself if you think anything music related can be placed into a black and white dynamic like you're doing.
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Interesting. By claiming that any kind of production that fits the music is therefore "good," and any kind that doesn't fit is therefore "bad," you're doing just that.

You're letting the terms "good" and "bad" speak for a number of characteristics that might differ greatly between examples.
 
Perhaps we should both just realize that we're arguing practically the same thing; all we disagree on is what "good" should mean. So instead of arguing what constitutes a complementary production job for a specific album, maybe we should argue about what exactly "good" means. :cool:

Which I'm not particularly fond of doing. So I vote we call it quits.
 
Quality of production is subjective, like anything else in music. Besides, if you let the production of an album a "make it or break it" attribute, then your shooting yourself in the foot. ATTWAD by Emperor had horrendous production but was an excellent album regardless. And while I'm in the minority around here for liking Cradle Of Filth's first 4 or so albums, I'll go ahead and say that CATB also had a shit production but contained great music. ATTWAD was too raw for the music being presented, and CATB was conversely too polished (with a weak-assed drum tone to boot). I still think that Metallica's Flemming Rassmussen era had some of the best production/recording/mixing in all of metal: crisp and clear, but with an underlying rawness that gave the music a vicious quality.
 
The first three Metallica albums have absolutely flawless productions. I really can't imagine them any other way.

As always, hamburgerboy should be ignored. He's so reliably contradictory that I suspect his homosexuality is purely a means of pissing off his parents.
 
WeAreInFlames said:
The first three Metallica albums have absolutely flawless productions. I really can't imagine them any other way.
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I feel the same way about Lykathea Aflame's sole album, the production and mixing are very awkward but how that album was produced is what ultimately gives it the personality it has.
 
WeAreInFlames said:
The first three Metallica albums have absolutely flawless productions. I really can't imagine them any other way.

As always, hamburgerboy should be ignored. He's so reliably contradictory that I suspect his homosexuality is purely a means of pissing off his parents.
Click to expand...

Every time someone calls me out for being disagreeable they combine it with a statement of fact so indisputable that it seems like they do so just to force me into agreement just so you can further prove my contrarian nature. I laugh at your pathetic mind games.
 
Controversial opinion: Pentagram was merely an extremely high quality band with moderate influence. Their material was often too similar to Sabbath or other forerunners to be terribly influential; Saint Vitus and Trouble took the doom sound further than Pentagram.
 
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