Controversial opinions on metal

[Manic Ferocity]

Ok, well I actually agree with you on that. I still think Black Sabbath is among the best metal has to offer. It's hard to determine what the "first" from other sub-genres of metal actually were, anyway. As much as I love Venom, I don't think they are the best black metal band out there, but there are still plenty of bona-fide black metal classics that I consider favorites (De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss, etc.). That was my point, really. I don't find that as much with new stuff. I've found a lot of great death metal albums over the years but none of them quite match up to, say, The Red in the Sky is Ours.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Ok, well I actually agree with you on that. I still think Black Sabbath is among the best metal has to offer. It's hard to determine what the "first" from other sub-genres of metal actually were, anyway. As much as I love Venom, I don't think they are the best black metal band out there, but there are still plenty of bona-fide black metal classics that I consider favorites (De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, Hvis Lyset Tar Oss, etc.). That was my point, really. I don't find that as much with new stuff. I've found a lot of great death metal albums over the years but none of them quite match up to, say, The Red in the Sky is Ours.

Oh man, I could go forever about how Burzum's "four albums in one year" burst has yet to be replicated. Just some magic in there. But there are also albums coming out currently that I think are better than old Darkthrone, and it always bugs me that you got people saying that's "wrong". Too many people affix grand mythos to the "originators" that prevents them from being able to admit that, yes, people made better music later.

Like I said, I'm skeptical of anyone whose tastes run categorically on EITHER end of the timeline. If I ask someone to tell me their top 10 metal albums and they're all either in the last ten years or the 70s and early 80s I think I'm dealing with someone who's not willing to just judge music on its own merits.

 

[Master_Yoda77]

You are the king of worshipping traditional metal with bad vocals.

Good tunes, yeah. I fail to see how shitty vocals automatically equate to shitty bands.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Calling Sabbath "heavy" in this day and age...

Wat?

To this day, Black Sabbath have some of the heaviest music of all time. If we made a thread asking for the heaviest metal riffs or tracks of all time, im pretty sure more than half the people would post a BS track.

I know you guys have heard these a million times, but to say these are anything but extremely heavy would just be a lie.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Wat?

To this day, Black Sabbath have some of the heaviest music of all time. If we made a thread asking for the heaviest metal riffs or tracks of all time, im pretty sure more than half the people would post a BS track.

I know you guys have heard these a million times, but to say these are anything but extremely heavy would just be a lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUnioaDo0bI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5yR5XhCIeg

I've heard those more times than I can count. Like I said before, I knew the words to Iron Man before my first day in kindergarten.

I admit part of it is production, but that's kind of important since, really, all that we're talking about is fairly simple blues riffage, and there's plenty that's way goddamn heavier.

Cactus - Rumblin Man


Eyehategod - Methamphetamine


Mastodon - March of the Fire Ants


Notice how one of those predates even Sabbath, so I'm not shitting on them for being old. Just... I'm not exactly floored by the heaviness of Sabbath. More like I like how they're bluesy and sinister, but not "heavy".

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Wat?

To this day, Black Sabbath have some of the heaviest music of all time. If we made a thread asking for the heaviest metal riffs or tracks of all time, im pretty sure more than half the people would post a BS track.

I know you guys have heard these a million times, but to say these are anything but extremely heavy would just be a lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUnioaDo0bI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5yR5XhCIeg

Can you please give us your definition of "heavy"? I've heard you say numerous times that Sabbath have some of the heaviest music of all time and honestly it makes no sense to me. Obviosuly you have something different in mind when you use the word "heavy" than most people have, so I would be interested to know what exactly it is.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

but not "heavy".

 

[crimsonfloyd]

And for the record the heaviest thing I've ever heard both live and on record is Swans "The Seer".

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Can you please give us your definition of "heavy"? I've heard you say numerous times that Sabbath have some of the heaviest music of all time and honestly it makes no sense to me. Obviosuly you have something different in mind when you use the word "heavy" than most people have, so I would be interested to know what exactly it is.

Thick, heavy, crushing riffs. It's not my fault that it doesn't make sense to you, if you cant hear the sheer heaviness in most of their earlier work(especially the two I posted) than you definitely need to get your ears checked.

Also, i'm pretty sure most people will tell you that they are one of the heaviest bands of all time. Shit almost every thread/poll on every site that I've come across for heaviest band, album, track have been flooded with votes or BS.

To be honest, you guys are officially the first two people I have ever come across in my life that have said Black Sabbath are not heavy ... ridiculous.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Thick, heavy, crushing riffs. It's not my fault that it doesn't make sense to you, if you cant hear the sheer heaviness in most of their earlier work(especially the two I posted) than you definitely need to get your ears checked.

Also, i'm pretty sure most people will tell you that they are one of the heaviest bands of all time. Shit almost every thread/poll on every site that I've come across for heaviest band, album, track have been flooded with votes or BS.

To be honest, you guys are officially the first two people I have ever come across in my life that have said Black Sabbath are not heavy ... ridiculous.

Don't be a drama queen. I was just asking for a clarification. And I never said Black Sabbath wasn't heavy. They certainly are. I just wouldn't agree that they are some of the heaviest music of all time. In 1972? Sure. Today? No. Swans for example, actually throttles one's body to the core. It's quantitatively heavier. Same goes for acts like Neurosis, Sunn 0))) and others.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Oh man, I could go forever about how Burzum's "four albums in one year" burst has yet to be replicated. Just some magic in there. But there are also albums coming out currently that I think are better than old Darkthrone, and it always bugs me that you got people saying that's "wrong". Too many people affix grand mythos to the "originators" that prevents them from being able to admit that, yes, people made better music later.

Like I said, I'm skeptical of anyone whose tastes run categorically on EITHER end of the timeline. If I ask someone to tell me their top 10 metal albums and they're all either in the last ten years or the 70s and early 80s I think I'm dealing with someone who's not willing to just judge music on its own merits.

Contenders for modern classics:

Bolzer - Aura
Sacriphyx - The Western Front
Lvcifyre - The Calling Depths
Dead Congregation - Grave of the Archangels

It's still difficult for me to measure these up to albums like Beyond Sanctorum, The Winterlong, Blessed Are the Sick, Like an Everflowing Stream and many others.

There aren't any bands I can think of that played Transilvanian Hunger style black metal better than Darkthrone. Darkthrone-worship is usually pretty boring.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I've heard those more times than I can count. Like I said before, I knew the words to Iron Man before my first day in kindergarten.

I admit part of it is production, but that's kind of important since, really, all that we're talking about is fairly simple blues riffage, and there's plenty that's way goddamn heavier.

Cactus - Rumblin Man


Eyehategod - Methamphetamine


Mastodon - March of the Fire Ants


Notice how one of those predates even Sabbath, so I'm not shitting on them for being old. Just... I'm not exactly floored by the heaviness of Sabbath. More like I like how they're bluesy and sinister, but not "heavy".

Mastodon? Seriously?

How do you define "heavy"? To me, it is defined by riffs conveying a dark atmosphere, not superficial details like production values or guitar tuning. The only thing that makes Sabbath sound "dated" are those things.

Electric Wizard sucks and are a poor example of how doom metal has evolved. Listen to Reverend Bizarre.

 

[Krow]

Electric Wizard sucks and are a poor example of how doom metal has evolved. Listen to Reverend Bizarre.

Bullshit. Electric Wizard are a pretty direct evolution from Master of Reality and probably vol 4. Along with Sleep, they're probably why the genre of "stoner/doom" exists today. But it's an untrve genre, so you don't want to hear it.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Stoner doom sounds like a parody of traditional doom and I can't think of a much worse example than Dopethrone. It sounds like the band focused more on producing it to sound heavy than writing interesting riffs.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Mastodon? Seriously?



How do you define "heavy"? To me, it is defined by riffs conveying a dark atmosphere, not superficial details like production values or guitar tuning. The only thing that makes Sabbath sound "dated" are those things.



Electric Wizard sucks and are a poor example of how doom metal has evolved. Listen to Reverend Bizarre.

Heavy to me implies weight, and those sabbath tunes are certainly evil, but not especially heavy. You might prefer them, but heavy? Meh.

And yes Mastodon. That fucking riff sounds massive even ACOUSTIC. I'm not even a big fan of the band, but that riff is on my top 10 heaviest ever.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

But once again, that kind of comes down to production values and guitar tuning.

Black Sabbath's riffs are as massive as any metal band, really. They just aren't ridiculously tuned down like modern bands.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

But once again, that kind of comes down to production values and guitar tuning.

Black Sabbath's riffs are as massive as any metal band, really. They just aren't ridiculously tuned down like modern bands.

Um. Guitar tuning basically means "what notes you play". So you're claiming that a Sabbath tune would sound just as heavy if it were transposed up an octave? LOL .

Composers have always known that lower tones give a song greater heft. That's why the Moonlight Sonata is down on the low keys and Liszt's Hungarian No 2 has those hard hits on low C#. Don't bitch to me because Sabbath didn't think of it.

Also, are you denying how insanely heavy that Cactus track is? That shit's from 1970, dude!!

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I'm not saying that guitar tuning is what creates heaviness. I am saying that I don't know what else you might be implying when saying Black Sabbath isn't heavy. Seriously, have you listened to the first six albums? Into the Void is one of the heaviest songs of all time.

I have not listened to that Cactus song yet but I will soon. Plenty of hard rock bands started to get heavier with time but Black Sabbath turned it into something that can be distinguished from mere rock.

 

[Der Morgenstern]

There is stoner doom being produced now that makes Black Sabbath as heavy as electro pop.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

That's because it is produced to sound like pure mass. The riffs are often bouncy and tacky as hell.