Controversial opinions on metal

[SomeGuyDude]

Yes. Doom didn't exist in the slightest on the first two Sabbath albums, but the moment Iommi sustained a hand injury and started to turn the knobs, BAM, doom. Because that's all doom metal is. Music played with downtuned instruments.

He hurt his hand before Sabbath, dipshit. And yes, it was easier to play with looser strings because he had to use custom finger caps and that made it easier to press and bend the stringers since he couldn't actually feel them.

 

[CF87]

I do not compare and contrast heaviness by comparing guitar tone and bands. Old Unleashed is heavy as fuck. So is Crowbar. Some people might find Sabbath or even AC/DC heavy. Ride The Lightning is heavy. Listen to For Whom The Bell Tolls. Shit came out in 84 and is still heavy. There's a lot of modern shit that people find heavy. That I personally do not.

 

[romanticism]

They began downtuning on Master Of Reality. Not sure why you're getting hostile.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

They began downtuning on Master Of Reality. Not sure why you're getting hostile.

Because you said they made two albums and then he hurt his hand. Not true. It was before then. And you can bet your ass one reason he stuck around on the low strings with simpler riffs was that his fingertips were made of plastic so he couldn't do a lot of noodling or string bends.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

The first movements of Shotakovich's 4th and 8th symphonies are far heavier than anything guitar-based music is capable of offering so this whole debate is superfluous.

 

[romanticism]

The first movements of Shotakovich's 4th and 8th symphonies are far heavier than anything guitar-based music is capable of offering so this whole debate is superfluous.

Agree 100%. I just didn't want to be the first person to post such a notion, but yeah. And I don't know of any guitar-based music that is as dark or "evil" as Ligeti's Requiem either.

 

[Carpe Mortem]

I do not compare and contrast heaviness by comparing guitar tone and bands. Old Unleashed is heavy as fuck. So is Crowbar. Some people might find Sabbath or even AC/DC heavy. Ride The Lightning is heavy. Listen to For Whom The Bell Tolls. Shit came out in 84 and is still heavy. There's a lot of modern shit that people find heavy. That I personally do not.

I agree. I'd also go a step further, however, to state that heaviness does not define genre, as so many people seem to believe or subscribe to. You, along with Crimson and Romanticism, have me contemplating the nature of 'metal'. What's an all-encompassing way to define the genre as a whole, unique to metal?

I found this thread on another site, and one poster mentioned 'intensity', which I'd definitely say differs from 'heaviness', and I partially agree with.

http://www.metalunderground.com/forum/thread/61/What-Makes-Metal-Music-Metal/

"What makes metal?

We could try to define it all day long. What I think it boils down to is Intensity.

Any good band uses emotion to drive their lyrics and sound progression. It is just how Intense they push that emotion at the listener that makes them metal. For example:

Two bands are singing about revolting against an oppressor. One band the Jam Band uses light to no intensity to get that message across, however on the other end of the scale is a band like Arch Enemy who sings about the same issue just the Intensity is pushed way up.

We could easily get into time signatures, riffing, soloing, and blast beats trying to determine "What is metal?" but that would do us no good because other styles of music use those same things in different ways. I don't think it is the tools you use but what you build that makes you METAL."

He makes a good point. I mean... there's plenty of metal that's pretty chill musically, but intensity of the message does seem to be a pretty common theme.

 

[Eligos]

The problem with that definition is that there are loads of other styles of music that are just as intense as metal. Noise Rock, Aggro, Grindcore, Hardcore Punk, some Post-Punk, Shoegaze, Garage Rock. Some of these styles are loud, and most of them aggressive, but all are certainly intense. So the definition for metal can't just rest upon, "It's intense shit, bro."

 

[HamburgerBoy]

It's mostly riffing imo. And if intensity indicates metal-ness, hardcore punk is definitely more metal than most black metal.

 

[Eligos]

Agreed, there's some very thin, emaciated trendy black metal out there (the PBM band Liam comes to mind, as well as Striborg). I think the term "riffless coward" is an equally apt and hilarious description for the purveyors of this style.

However, you'd use it more liberally than I would, since you apply it to Rome of Drudkh, whom I consider quite the riff mogul.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

wot is PBM?

 

[Eligos]

Post black metal, Pabst Blue Metal, Peanut Butter and Metal, poly-biological metal.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

lol, I was actually going to guess one of the two middle ones.

Unless someone listens to strictly black/death metal, I think it's really weird when metal fans don't like Black Sabbath.

Why pander to fans of more modern and deviant metal in this manner?

 

[Carpe Mortem]

The problem with that definition is that there are loads of other styles of music that are just as intense as metal. Noise Rock, Aggro, Grindcore, Hardcore Punk, some Post-Punk, Shoegaze, Garage Rock. Some of these styles are loud, and most of them aggressive, but all are certainly intense. So the definition for metal can't just rest upon, "It's intense shit, bro."

A working definition still seems to evade us. Strange, you know metal when you hear it but can you sum up the genre in a sentence? I sure can't.

Then again, can you really sum up any genre in a sentence?

 

[KafkaX]

Agreed, there's some very thin, emaciated trendy black metal out there (the PBM band Liam comes to mind, as well as Striborg). I think the term "riffless coward" is an equally apt and hilarious description for the purveyors of this style.

However, you'd use it more liberally than I would, since you apply it to Rome of Drudkh, whom I consider quite the riff mogul.

I like Liam. They have some really beautiful stuff. But its no way intended to be black metal, or any deviation of it. Its straight up post-rock.

Btw, LOL @ Pabst Blue Metal.

 

[Eligos]

Let me pose one to you that captures most of the genre. We're not talking extreme metal here, but metal as a whole:

Guitar-driven, loud, angular rock music that most often evokes fantastic and philosophical lyrics and masculine themes.

 

[Carpe Mortem]

It's good, a decent definition. Guitar-driven is definitely crucial, but simultaneously... isn't most music guitar-driven?

Loudness is crucial, but at the same time there's plenty of chilled out metal that anyone can hear and say yup... that's not rock, definitely metal.

 

[Eligos]

When one hears a relaxed-sounding metal band, the most common knee-jerk reaction is to differentiate it from the herd by pointing to a mixture or blending with, or influence from, another genre of music.

Earth takes liner notes from drone music.

Isis is a smorgasbord of 90's atmospheric rock derivatives and sludge.

Opeth is heavily influenced by Classic Prog.

Summoning is mostly low-brow fantasy soundtracks.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Most music is certainly not guitar driven.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I think most rock music (at least of the last four or five decades) is guitar-driven, though.

And with the exception of Mayhem and a few others, black metal fails again on the angular and masculine front.

 

[Eligos]

On the contrary, I would argue that solitude in nature, pursuit of the unknown, and the strength of the individual(Satanism etc.) are all inherently masculine values in which black metal takes root. Also, the atmospheres you've dismissed as feminine often make heavy use of thick, angular-sounding chord structures.