Controversial opinions on metal

[HamburgerBoy]

There's almost no fusion on Unquestionable Presence though.

And riffs are what make metal good. I'd rather listen to that than notoriety.

 

[The Butt]

And riffs are what make metal good. I'd rather listen to that than notoriety.

Riffs are what makes SOME metal good. Not all metal requires riffs. Speaking in absolutes lessens the validity of what you say.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Not all metal requires riffs.

Show me a metal song without a guitar riff.

 

[The Butt]

Any of the black metal you get hard from complaining about being "riffless".

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Technically a lot of it still has riffs, they're just such lazy ones that it barely even counts. But you're right, playing a repetitive "strum a-strum a-strum" rhythm isn't magically elevated from that-guy-playing-his-guitar-on-campus-core just because it's done with distortion and a lot of reverb. Enjoy your (absence of) production values, though, that really makes a song.

 

[The Butt]

Enjoy only enjoying music based on surface-level bullshit such as "damn, sick riffs bro", you fucking defect.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Coming from the guy with fetal alcohol syndrome.

 

[The Butt]

Except for the fact that I don't have fetal alcohol syndrome, so that is kind of a

Go away.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I'm with burgerboy here, riffs are definitely the most important part of metal. And Elements is definitely better than Focus and Spheres. But i wouldnt compare it to Unquestionable Presence, as they are much different albums.

 

[The Butt]

They are important, yes, but do you deny that metal can be good without "riffs", in the sense that HB describes?

Because I firmly believe that HB places the importance of the riff, above good songwriting in general.

 

[Omni]

HBB has an insurmountable bias against black metal.

I find the compositions on Focus to rely more on high level musicianship than any type of cohesive substance. It's as if they gave very little focus to making sure that the individual parts came together in a meaningful way. The vocals are just another layer of blandness.

Yes, I went there.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

It's a very cohesive album, not remotely the riff-salad you find in a lot of later tech/prog death metal. There are a few weak points (Textures is pretty wanky/slapped-together), but then there's stuff like the last couple minutes of How Could I? which is one of the best ways to close an album I've ever heard.

Just for the record, there is plenty of music, even metal, that I love that is admittedly sparse in terms of individual riffs themselves. I prefer A Pleasant Shade of Grey over Awaken the Guardian, for example, and the former really only has a handful of riffs over its 50+ minute duration. The Butt was the first to mention black metal in this discussion, but I'm not biased against black metal with great riffs. Most Mayhem succeeds in part due to their excellent riffcraft, but they have other qualities that elevate them further. Show me black metal that doesn't rely primarily on 1) that overused 6/4 march and 2) tremolo picking that follows the beat lock-step, and I'll give it a shot.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Also, there's metal without any riffs whatsoever? Examples please.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Wold's Screech Owl is pretty ambiguous on the riffing front, although there are some individual songs with metal riffs.

 

[Satanstoenail]

I used to have an old At Death's Door comp when I was sixteen that had a demo version of Uriboric Forms on it. That was pretty cool iirc.

I had that on vinyl. That version was straight off the demos I think. Much more Atheist like with Tony Choy on bass and more raw production.

There's almost no fusion on Unquestionable Presence though.

Plenty of outstanding riffs though.

 

[CF87]

Unquestionable Presence is a great cd. It's not fusion, but is it progressive. Never got into Elements, the album was poorly produced and recorded to the point where I could not get into it.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Unquestionable Presence was probably one of the most important albums in my metal development but it hasn't held up as well as Elements for me. The riffs are actually the weakest part for me; the rest of the rhythm section is really spastic and busy, but there's too much ordinary thrash riffing on the album. The leads are very pretty but their sense of melody just seems so traditional compared to what Watchtower, Mekong Delta, Voivod, etc were doing years earlier. I kind of think of it more like very early Megadeth but in a death/thrash context, at its best it has that really loose and groovy feeling very rare in metal, but stuff like the title track or The Formative Years is just ordinary, rigid tech-metal.

The production on Elements is really unfortunate, but the songwriting is godly.

 

[Satanstoenail]

But that's what makes Unquestionable Presence great, you weirdo. The loose thrash riffing and mental rhythm section. It shouldn't really work at all, but the quality of the riffs and grooves is undeniable. The fact that they didn't go all out fusion is one of the reasons I can still listen to the album today and love it, whereas Cynic sound dated as hell. And the leads aren't pretty at all, there's lots of Mustaine-esque pentatonic flailing and random high notes. Look to Cynic for pretty leads.

I like two songs on Elements - Mineral, and Samba Briza. Everything else is a mess, like they were going for way too much and it all fell in a heap. And it's sorely lacking Steve Flynn's frenetic drumming.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The problem is that the thrash riffing isn't loose though. There's tons of static chugging on that album. I agree that the absence of actual fusion-y leads and chords is a big plus for the album and gives it a timeless sound (and the production is excellent too), but that's not what I mean by pretty. Like the leads near the end of Mother Man; I get this weird Spaghetti Western vibe every time I hear them, so uplifting. Same with those harmonized tremolo-picked leads around 1:40 in Enthralled in Essence. The leads are amazing in a very classic, unadulterated-metal way, but the riffs bring it only maybe a third of the time.

Mineral is my very favorite Atheist song, but Flynn is not remotely capable of playing the Elements material. The videos of him playing Mineral on YouTube are just sad. He's great as a total spaz and filling the void on the first couple albums, but anything with a higher degree of structure and it falls apart for him.

 

[Satanstoenail]

It's not just the riffing, I think the whole band is pretty loose on Unquestionable Presence when compared to a band like Cynic. It's not a bunch of college trained jazz/metal musicians, it's a bunch of hacks with natural flair trying to play crazy technical metal with some jazz influence. Obviously the band are more tight on Elements and the drummer has better trained technique than Steve Flynn, but really the album is a pretty boring listen when compared to UP. And yeah the production doesn't help either.

Also I listened to a bunch of YouTube videos and you're right, he can't play Mineral. He also can't play Mother Man. I actually had to stop Mother Man because he was butchering it so badly.