Controversial opinions on metal
- Thread starter The Ozzman
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Slayed Necros
Void
Personally I'd like to see John Arch make a return as Incantation's new vocalist.
Baroque
Active Member
It's a modern ethnomusicologist (or two) (basically musicians/composers who weren't good enough so they went into teaching) trying to explain a past they weren't a part of. It is entirely acceptable to listen to the generations of composers from the classical and romantic era (you know, the people who designed, developed and wrote music for the instrument) over someone who probably can't even play the thing properly.
Who is the more credible source on the organ or harpsichord? Bach? or these ethnomusicologists from the 60's? I'll take Bach every time.
JontRevolting
FALSE ARREST! FALSE ARREST!
Sirjack
Stinkupuss
Facts about the piano:
It didn't originate from an instrument involving its current interface.
It doesn't sound like percussion because the actual similarity to percussion ends with the hammer mechanism.
It doesn't serve the same function as percussions instruments.
It requires entirely different skills than any other instrument you may claim is percussion.
The only fact about Hornbostel-Sachs that matters:
The majority of relevant (read: based on current rather than outdated information) musical texts regarding related subjects are derived from their work and the majority of people involved in musical instruction use these texts as a part of their instruction. They are more known, based on actual factual research and more accepted and utilized.
It didn't originate from an instrument involving its current interface.
It doesn't sound like percussion because the actual similarity to percussion ends with the hammer mechanism.
It doesn't serve the same function as percussions instruments.
It requires entirely different skills than any other instrument you may claim is percussion.
The only fact about Hornbostel-Sachs that matters:
The majority of relevant (read: based on current rather than outdated information) musical texts regarding related subjects are derived from their work and the majority of people involved in musical instruction use these texts as a part of their instruction. They are more known, based on actual factual research and more accepted and utilized.
Sirjack
Stinkupuss
Baroque
Active Member
1) majority is not always right.
2) Let's see some statistics to prove it's a majority. I managed to get through a university education without once hearing their names nor their method. Sounds like some bullshit, it's easy to just say "the majority" without actually knowing the truth.
3) because the strings are hammered, it is partially a percussion instrument. The hammers are keyed by human interaction, and thus in effect a human is hammering on the strings.
4) it is very similar in layout and function to the vibraphone which is clearly a percussion instrument also. I've seen piano and vibraphone used interchangeably multiple times in jazz trios.
5) I was actually a music education major for a year, took classes on strings and percussion. I do recall instructors referring to piano as a percussion instrument and a hybrid instrument. No one ever said "it's definitely not a percussion instrument" like you imply. It's a mix of strings and percussion. Honestly it's more percussion than strings because there is no vibrato, bowing or actual fingering of the strings involved except in some special modern compositions.
6) you still didn't refute my argument about classical/romantic era composers and piano builders being a better source of info on the subject.
no country for old wainds
Active Member
- Nov 23, 2002
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All I have to say to your argument is that it isn't my problem if you don't know who Hornbostel and Sachs are or about their research. It was the accepted standard in 1914 and is still the accepted standard. I don't need to do anything else because you can't show me otherwise. If you could, you would, but you've only got anecdotal evidence.
Interestingly enough, you keep talking about your classical music education, which has nothing to do with Hornbostel-Sachs. You are using literally the "You can't be critical of music if you aren't a musician" of instrument classification arguments to prove your theory, which is based on outdated information.
Anyway, relevant to the original discussion since this one will not progress any further in all likelihood...
Droning sounds and singular sustained notes do not have a discernable melody. Do you think that they are percussion too, @GuiltySpawn? That seemed to be the core of your argument.
Droning sounds and singular sustained notes do not have a discernable melody. Do you think that they are percussion too, @GuiltySpawn? That seemed to be the core of your argument.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
This whole debate gets a 2/10.
I now have a headache.
@GuiltySpawn there was a lot of stuff you said that I'd love to respond to, but I just wanted to point out that your claim that clean vocals are more diverse than harsh vocals is incorrect, you wouldn't even be able to prove that.
One of my ultimate pet-peeves is when people try to objectively prove why their musical preference is more than just subjective.
I now have a headache.
@GuiltySpawn there was a lot of stuff you said that I'd love to respond to, but I just wanted to point out that your claim that clean vocals are more diverse than harsh vocals is incorrect, you wouldn't even be able to prove that.
One of my ultimate pet-peeves is when people try to objectively prove why their musical preference is more than just subjective.
I have too much stamina for online discussions.
HamburgerBoy
Active Member
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This is the most autistic 5-page set of arguments I have been completely uninvolved in. Enjoying reading it.
-CC-
Something in My Eye
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I just finished reading that multi-page argument about pianos and I'm now experiecing this overwhelming feeling deep in my chest that I am going to die alone.
Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
hey guys
the new carly rae jepsen is really good
anyways, i once knew a guy who thought tim owens should do vocals for bolt thrower...weird kid
the new carly rae jepsen is really good
anyways, i once knew a guy who thought tim owens should do vocals for bolt thrower...weird kid
HamburgerBoy
Active Member
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I've only heard a few tracks from her new album but I like all that I have heard, has that sorta retro 80s funky/new jack swingy thing going for them.
no country for old wainds
Active Member
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Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
nah, i doubt it considering where i knew the guy from
i'm half curious to hear what it would sound like though
and i guess opinion:
darkspace is boring garbage
@Omni
Droning sounds singular sustained notes do have a discernible melody: the single note that they are sustaining. That's why I usually prefer vocals which are not just sung at a single pitch but which alter in pitch to create a variety of diverse melodies.
Again, I'm not saying that harsh vocals are literally percussion in a technical sense, I'm saying that they often serve a percussive role in the band and therefore are related to the sound of percussion. Most, if not all, non-melodic instruments are considered within the percussion family.
@CASSETTEISGOD
Again, the reason I feel that clean vocals are more diverse than harsh vocals, is because harsh vocals are very limited to the degree of how much melody they can deliver. While it is true that they can alter in pitch from lows to highs, their overly distorted nature drowns out the melodic pitch of the note they're delivering, making each lyric sound essentially the same.
It is of course, a subjective opinion whether someone prefers harsh or clean vocals in metal. What I'm doing is trying to explain rationally and reasonably why I feel clean vocals sound better than harsh vocals, not to objectively prove that they do, since that would be undoable.
Droning sounds singular sustained notes do have a discernible melody: the single note that they are sustaining. That's why I usually prefer vocals which are not just sung at a single pitch but which alter in pitch to create a variety of diverse melodies.
Again, I'm not saying that harsh vocals are literally percussion in a technical sense, I'm saying that they often serve a percussive role in the band and therefore are related to the sound of percussion. Most, if not all, non-melodic instruments are considered within the percussion family.
@CASSETTEISGOD
Again, the reason I feel that clean vocals are more diverse than harsh vocals, is because harsh vocals are very limited to the degree of how much melody they can deliver. While it is true that they can alter in pitch from lows to highs, their overly distorted nature drowns out the melodic pitch of the note they're delivering, making each lyric sound essentially the same.
It is of course, a subjective opinion whether someone prefers harsh or clean vocals in metal. What I'm doing is trying to explain rationally and reasonably why I feel clean vocals sound better than harsh vocals, not to objectively prove that they do, since that would be undoable.
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