Controversial opinions on metal

[GuiltySpawn]

@Baroque
I think in some cases no vocals at all are appropriate in certain music. I think it's often the case that in progressive or technical death metal, it would sound way better if they just removed the vocals all together. So no, I don't dislike instrumental metal for lacking melodic vocals. I dislike music that includes harsh vocals when they don't sound right being there.

I think the tone of harsh vocals drowns out the melodies underneath it, and that's how it detracts from the music.

@Omni
I'll once again bring up the cymbal example. Cymbals are percussion instruments because of the fact that they have no discernible melody. They can vary in pitch, but the tone is so overly harsh and distorted that no true melodic note is made when they are struck. The same is true for harsh vocals.

The reason I dislike this type of overly distorted voice, is because for me the role of the singer and the very definition of "singing" is to produce melody, and I enjoy hearing various vocal melodies on top of the instruments. I just don't understand the point of a vocalist completely eliminating his singing voice from the band.

 

[Omni]

Cymbals are percussion instruments because you strike them and they make a sound. That is what percussion is.

 

[GuiltySpawn]

Well, not everyone would agree that all instruments that you strike are percussion. Some musicians prefer to classify all keyboards, for example, within their own category, and this would include xylophones, marimbas and the like.

 

[Omni]

You don't strike a keyboard when you play it. Marimba and xylophone are percussion instruments. They are classified in that instrument family. They are not part of the same group as keyboards and pianos.

 

[Baroque]

@Baroque
I think in some cases no vocals at all are appropriate in certain music. I think it's often the case that in progressive or technical death metal, it would sound way better if they just removed the vocals all together. So no, I don't dislike instrumental metal for lacking melodic vocals. I dislike music that includes harsh vocals when they don't sound right being there.

I think the tone of harsh vocals drowns out the melodies underneath it, and that's how it detracts from the music.

@Omni
I'll once again bring up the cymbal example. Cymbals are percussion instruments because of the fact that they have no discernible melody. They can vary in pitch, but the tone is so overly harsh and distorted that no true melodic note is made when they are struck. The same is true for harsh vocals.

The reason I dislike this type of overly distorted voice, is because for me the role of the singer and the very definition of "singing" is to produce melody, and I enjoy hearing various vocal melodies on top of the instruments. I just don't understand the point of a vocalist completely eliminating his singing voice from the band.

1) Rather than harsh vocals "drowning out the melodies" think of them as "contrasting with the melodies". It adds to the layers of musical expression. Beautiful melodies contrasted against harsh screaming can be very cool.

2) You like the sound of cymbals which are sort of a "distorted percussion" and you like clean percussion. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you like both distorted guitars and clean guitars. So why do you have a double standard for vocals? Why can't you like both distorted and clean vocals?

 

[Baroque]

You don't strike a keyboard when you play it. Marimba and xylophone are percussion instruments. They are classified in that instrument family. They are not part of the same group as keyboards and pianos.

Piano is a percussion instrument of sorts. The strings are struck by little hammers internally.

 

[Omni]

It still isn't part of the percussion family of instruments and produces an entirely different sound used for different purposes. Nobody in the know classifies the marimba or xylophone in the same group of instruments as the piano. Anyone with any musical background knows that they are percussion instruments. They belong to the same sub-group as the glockenspiel, which has the best name of all instruments.

At this point, GuiltySpawn should stop trying to be right because he is making false claims about all manner of things.

 

[Satanstoenail]

I think the tone of harsh vocals drowns out the melodies underneath it, and that's how it detracts from the music.

If the music is mixed properly, nothing should drown anything out.

The reason I dislike this type of overly distorted voice, is because for me the role of the singer and the very definition of "singing" is to produce melody, and I enjoy hearing various vocal melodies on top of the instruments. I just don't understand the point of a vocalist completely eliminating his singing voice from the band.

That's why vocalists who use harsh vocals exclusively are referred to as vocalists and not singers.

 

[Baroque]

It still isn't part of the percussion family of instruments and produces an entirely different sound used for different purposes.

How would you classify vibraphone then? It's capable of many songs playable on piano and yet it's struck by hammers. You technically strike the strings on a piano with a hammer, it's just mediated by levers between your fingers and the hammers..

Nobody in the know classifies the marimba or xylophone in the same group of instruments as the piano. Anyone with any musical background knows that they are percussion instruments.

Of course those are percussion instruments. I didn't state they're not. I said the piano is also a percussion instrument "of sorts".

I disagree with your statement about "anyone with any musical background". I'd say piano being at least partly percussion is up for debate to anyone open minded with a musical background. The piano certainly can be used percussively in prepared piano and other modern techniques as well.

Also I bet I have more of a formal musical background than you if you're going to try and act all high and mighty about it.

 

[Omni]

Show me a credible source that lists the piano in the percussion family of instruments. I didn't say that you were wrong about how it functions at all, so your need to continue this discussion after entering it with no real purpose but to interject a quip shows me that you're the one who wants to be high and mighty.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

"High and mighty". Lol, im guessing its omni that you're responding to

 

[Baroque]

"High and mighty". Lol, im guessing its omni that you're responding to

I'm starting to get why you blocked her lol. Although this is kind of fun too.

 

[Baroque]

Show me a credible source that lists the piano in the percussion family of instruments.

http://pianoeducation.org/pnopnfaq.html


Q: Is the piano a string instrument or a percussion instrument?
A: The piano is really a "hybrid"--a combination of two types. It's a string instrument because the musical tones originate in the strings; and it's also a percussion instrument, because the strings are set into vibration by being struck with hammers.

http://www.orsymphony.org/edu/instruments/popups/piano.html

The Piano
People disagree about whether the piano is a percussion or a string instrument.

http://theorie.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de/qcd/ph224/notes/lecture27.pdf

Piano: A Percussion String Instrument

 

[Omni]

That isn't a musical text that classifies the piano as part of the percussion section. You won't find one because it's solely down to a technical function inside of the instrument. It has never been, and will continue to never be, a percussion family instrument.

 

[Baroque]

That isn't a musical text that classifies the piano as part of the percussion section. You won't find one because it's solely down to a technical function inside of the instrument. It has never been, and will continue to never be, a percussion family instrument.

Lol are you fucking serious? All 3 sources I linked are not credible to you, including the fucking Oregon Symphony Orchestra? So you're saying that you yourself are a more credible source than the Oregon Symphony Orchestra. LOL

http://www.orsymphony.org/edu/instruments/percussion.aspx

The Percussion Family
The percussion family is the largest in the orchestra. Percussion instruments include any instrument that makes a sound when it is hit, shaken, or scraped. It's not easy to be a percussionist because it takes a lot of practice to hit an instrument with the right amount of strength, in the right place and at the right time. Some percussion instruments are tuned and can sound different notes, like the xylophone, timpani or piano, and some are untuned with no definite pitch, like the bass drum,cymbals or castanets.

The most common percussion instruments in the orchestra include the timpani,xylophone, cymbals, triangle, snare drum, bass drum, tambourine, maracas, gongs, chimes, celesta and piano.

 

[no country for old wainds]

if this new dude gets through a multi-page argument with omni of all people and continues to post here, he's earned his place as far as i'm concerned.

 

[GuiltySpawn]

1) Rather than harsh vocals "drowning out the melodies" think of them as "contrasting with the melodies". It adds to the layers of musical expression. Beautiful melodies contrasted against harsh screaming can be very cool.

2) You like the sound of cymbals which are sort of a "distorted percussion" and you like clean percussion. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you like both distorted guitars and clean guitars. So why do you have a double standard for vocals? Why can't you like both distorted and clean vocals?

1) I find them to be a major distraction from the melodic sounds of the instruments underneath them. I do not think that they mix well at all with the instruments. If voices distorted beyond all melodic pitch are appealing, why not make the guitars completely distorted beyond melodic pitch as well? It would be a complete disaster, that's why.

2) I get the impression that what you're trying to tell me is that you consider harsh vocals to be vocals sung with distortion, but that's simply not the case. There is a huge, stark difference between a distorted guitar and harsh extreme metal vocals. A distorted guitar sound maintains definite, measurable pitch. Clear notes are still produced with a distorted guitar. The same cannot be said about harsh vocals in extreme metal. No discernible melodic pitch is produced by them.

I enjoy vocals sung with distortion. That's a big difference from vocals whose melody has been totally stripped away. Again, you might as well make your guitar sounds completely stripped of any melody if you really want to be harsh and brutal.

Overall, I think harsh vocals come off as extremely pretentious in that they try way to hard to sound threatening or brutal, while stripping away all the melody that the voice is capable of producing. Metal was never meant to be a contest of "who can make the ugliest, noisiest sound?" I get the feeling that many extreme metal vocalists are trying to come off that way.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Omni and Baroque should start a thread called Pianistic Pedantry and just go at it

 

[no country for old wainds]

my question is do you actually like the kinds of music that, in the opinion of myself and probably a lot of people on this board, best suits extreme vocals? like, do you enjoy, say, darkthrone or immolation or autopsy musically? or are we talking about opeth and co. here

 

[Omni]

@Baroque

You edited that second link into your post after I replied, whether you want to admit that or not. It was not there when I started typing my post. This is what I've been taught:

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-piano-a-percussion-instrument

Also, if you study instrument family groupings by related development, it is not classified in the percussion family according to most theory.