no country for old wainds
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- Nov 23, 2002
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Controversial opinions on metal
- Thread starter The Ozzman
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I might receive a lot of flak for putting forth this opinion, but I'd like to try to explain my view as to why extreme metal vocals (death/black/grindcore, etc.) ruin the music of otherwise excellent bands.
1. The tone of the voice - Extreme metal vocals carry a very profound ugliness in their tone. By ugly, I mean they often give the impression of someone making a vomiting sound, or a sound one would make when injured and in extreme medical pain. They are belted in a way which makes the producer sound sick, unhealthy, weak, and powerless.
2. The absence of melody - There is much melody to be found in some progressive and technical death metal bands. Unfortunately, that melody is often buried beneath a harsh, atonal voice which fails to compliment the melodic ideas expressed in the music. As such, the vocals stick out like a sore thumb that are unnecessary to the musical expressions of the band. By excluding melody from the voice, the vocalist is greatly limiting his contributions to the band.
3. The repetitiveness - Because extreme metal vocals carry no discernible melodic pitch in their delivery, I find that the limited, one-dimensional, percussive sound that they produce very quickly becomes old, repetitive, and boring. I feel that there can in fact be a place for harsh vocals in music, and at certain times they can evoke a certain emotion within a certain musical phrase. However, the problem, I feel, is that they are highly, HIGHLY overused, so much to the point that they very quickly lose their appeal and become stale. Furthermore, when entire sub-genres of metal require harsh vocals as a key ingredient, the staleness and repetitiveness becomes all the more apparent.
In conclusion then, I feel it is very unfortunate and very shameful when a band of excellent musicians are drowned and suppressed out of the way by an extreme vocalist who ruins the sound of the band. In the future, I hope more metal bands come to realize this flaw and come to make proper adjustments accordingly.
1. The tone of the voice - Extreme metal vocals carry a very profound ugliness in their tone. By ugly, I mean they often give the impression of someone making a vomiting sound, or a sound one would make when injured and in extreme medical pain. They are belted in a way which makes the producer sound sick, unhealthy, weak, and powerless.
2. The absence of melody - There is much melody to be found in some progressive and technical death metal bands. Unfortunately, that melody is often buried beneath a harsh, atonal voice which fails to compliment the melodic ideas expressed in the music. As such, the vocals stick out like a sore thumb that are unnecessary to the musical expressions of the band. By excluding melody from the voice, the vocalist is greatly limiting his contributions to the band.
3. The repetitiveness - Because extreme metal vocals carry no discernible melodic pitch in their delivery, I find that the limited, one-dimensional, percussive sound that they produce very quickly becomes old, repetitive, and boring. I feel that there can in fact be a place for harsh vocals in music, and at certain times they can evoke a certain emotion within a certain musical phrase. However, the problem, I feel, is that they are highly, HIGHLY overused, so much to the point that they very quickly lose their appeal and become stale. Furthermore, when entire sub-genres of metal require harsh vocals as a key ingredient, the staleness and repetitiveness becomes all the more apparent.
In conclusion then, I feel it is very unfortunate and very shameful when a band of excellent musicians are drowned and suppressed out of the way by an extreme vocalist who ruins the sound of the band. In the future, I hope more metal bands come to realize this flaw and come to make proper adjustments accordingly.
How to Be Bad at Understanding Metal: The Post
Vegard Pompey
ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU
Shit I missed a Chasm conversation
I used to be ambivalent towards Farseeing and I still kinda am but lately I've been feeling that the closer is one of the best songs they ever wrote. First couple minutes after the intro are absolutely spine-chilling, the most mournful, defeatist thing in a discography of mournful, defeatist things. TIMELESS... MONOLITHS OF HATE!!
And yeah the new Acerus owns.
I used to be ambivalent towards Farseeing and I still kinda am but lately I've been feeling that the closer is one of the best songs they ever wrote. First couple minutes after the intro are absolutely spine-chilling, the most mournful, defeatist thing in a discography of mournful, defeatist things. TIMELESS... MONOLITHS OF HATE!!
And yeah the new Acerus owns.
It's the mentality a buddy from work has. He said to me once 'death metal vocals have no differentiation'. I told him to listen to Demilich and then tell me that with a straight face. He conceded my point.
Though, if the band isn't Trivium, Mastodon, (now) Baroness, Metallica, Megadeth or Gojira he doesn't really care. I make fun of him for this.
A lot of the points described in his post are actually reasons why extreme vocals are appropriate in a lot of music. It's just funny to me.
You of course are free to hold that view. I totally disagree though, as I've explained why. Perhaps you could elaborate on your reasons for disagreeing with me?
You obviously haven't heard much in the way of extreme vocals if you think that they don't have much variation, as it can often be found even within individual performances by the same vocalist.
Other things, such as your words that a vocalist sounds weak or in pain, are actually good reasons why those vocal styles are appropriate for some music. Not all extreme vocals are the same anyway.
They are also often used as part of the music, rather than being on top of it like a traditional vocalist may be utilized. That's an area where many bands excel.
Other things, such as your words that a vocalist sounds weak or in pain, are actually good reasons why those vocal styles are appropriate for some music. Not all extreme vocals are the same anyway.
They are also often used as part of the music, rather than being on top of it like a traditional vocalist may be utilized. That's an area where many bands excel.
This is exactly what I convey to people who don't understand the growling aspect. It's just another instrument. Vocals were the first musical instrument after all..
Well, you don't know me, so you have no grounds to make that claim. I've listened to literally hundreds of extreme metal bands. The opinion I have formed is based on years of listening experience. Can extreme metal vocals have variation? Of course they can. But one thing is certainly clear about the very nature of harsh vocals and how they are used...they are not a melodic instrument, they are a percussive instrument. I've spoken to many fans of extreme metal vocals, and nearly all of them concede that the vocals are percussive in nature, not melodic. Can percussive instruments vary in pitch? Well yes. But, again, they are extremely limited in the amount of melodic pitch they can deliver.
Clean vocals can deliver the same emotions of despair, but much better in my opinion, because they are much more capable of varying in their delivery of melody. Secondly, there are many extreme metal bands that do not evoke an emotion of ugliness or pain, as and such, extreme metal vocals are not appropriate and not match the aesthetics of the music, in my opinion.
Okay, cool. I still think your opinion is inexperienced and uninformed. I don't care what you listen to, so it doesn't matter to me. Harsh vocals aren't solely a percussive element in music, and that opinion alone shows me that you know less than you think.
Phylactery
Active Member
I'm kinda strange in that I often prefer harsh vocals to clean vocals. The harsh vocals have to be really bad for it to distract me from the music, otherwise they just blend in. On the other hand, bad/inappropriate clean vocals are an instant turn off for me and are usually a major distraction from the music. Obviously when they are both done really well, I enjoy them equally.
This point , I think, is a reason as to why the do work very well in a lot of bands. Because they aren't melodic, they don't detract or take your focus away from the melody of the instruments. With clean vocals there may be a vocal melody that overpowers/draws you in over the melody of the instruments.
@Vegard Pompey - Totally in agreement that "The Mission/Arrival to Hopeless Shores" is one of the finest The Chasm songs. It's an emotional tour de force and I know exactly what you're talking about with the spine-tingling. Coincidentally, I don't think it would work as well without those pained, mournful screams from Corchado.
This point , I think, is a reason as to why the do work very well in a lot of bands. Because they aren't melodic, they don't detract or take your focus away from the melody of the instruments. With clean vocals there may be a vocal melody that overpowers/draws you in over the melody of the instruments.
@Vegard Pompey - Totally in agreement that "The Mission/Arrival to Hopeless Shores" is one of the finest The Chasm songs. It's an emotional tour de force and I know exactly what you're talking about with the spine-tingling. Coincidentally, I don't think it would work as well without those pained, mournful screams from Corchado.
Not many people would dispute the fact that in extreme metal, the vocals primarily serve as a percussive instrument rather than a delivery of a melodic line. The vocals can alter in pitch from low to high, but that doesn't make them melodic in nature, any more so than the differences in pitch of varying cymbal sounds. People all recognize that a crash cymbal is a percussive instrument. If someone were to make the claim that a crash cymbal is merely "distorted melody", you would think it a fairly foolish statement. Likewise, it would be false and inaccurate to claim that harsh vocals are merely "singing with distortion".
I don't think my opinion is inexperienced or in any way unreasonable. I feel I have a pretty good grasp about metal in general, as I have been a diehard fan for 17 years.
"This point , I think, is a reason as to why the do work very well in a lot of bands. Because they aren't melodic, they don't detract or take your focus away from the melody of the instruments. With clean vocals there may be a vocal melody that overpowers/draws you in over the melody of the instruments."
I respectfully disagree with you for several reasons. First, when there is a band of excellent musicians capable of producing beautiful melodies, a non-melodic vocal line over top of it all buries that melody underneath it. It may be the case that a certain band would be better with NO vocals at all, in order to best emphasize the melody of their instruments. But secondly, if there must be a vocal line on top of the instruments, I feel that clean vocals can work for any band if done right and if the vocalist knows how to create a fitting melody. It is for this reason, that I feel clean vocals take a lot more talent to pull off, since the person doing them has to have the ears and the understanding of how to create proper melodies and make them blend in a way that sounds good accompanying the other instruments. This can be very difficult to do. The harsh vocalist need not concern himself with this important element, and so he has a much easier job in my opinion.
I don't think my opinion is inexperienced or in any way unreasonable. I feel I have a pretty good grasp about metal in general, as I have been a diehard fan for 17 years.
"This point , I think, is a reason as to why the do work very well in a lot of bands. Because they aren't melodic, they don't detract or take your focus away from the melody of the instruments. With clean vocals there may be a vocal melody that overpowers/draws you in over the melody of the instruments."
I respectfully disagree with you for several reasons. First, when there is a band of excellent musicians capable of producing beautiful melodies, a non-melodic vocal line over top of it all buries that melody underneath it. It may be the case that a certain band would be better with NO vocals at all, in order to best emphasize the melody of their instruments. But secondly, if there must be a vocal line on top of the instruments, I feel that clean vocals can work for any band if done right and if the vocalist knows how to create a fitting melody. It is for this reason, that I feel clean vocals take a lot more talent to pull off, since the person doing them has to have the ears and the understanding of how to create proper melodies and make them blend in a way that sounds good accompanying the other instruments. This can be very difficult to do. The harsh vocalist need not concern himself with this important element, and so he has a much easier job in my opinion.
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Phylactery
Active Member
Obviously I'm not going to change your mind on this. I'm just giving reasons as to why I find them to be good.
What's your opinion on the vocals of say Slayer, which are neither very melodic or very harsh?
I also find it ridiculous when you say "harsh vocals are overused". That's like saying clean vocals are overused, or rapping is overused or operatic vocals are overused. They fit with the genres they are most associated with and therefore a majority of artists within those genres will use them.
You keep mentioning "excellent musicians" in your posts. Does this mean you only like music with technically proficient musicians? If so, I can't agree. There are bands like Venom, who aren't the best with their instruments who I like very much. Conversely, you have bands like Dream Theater and Brain Drill that are incredibly technical but I find them unlistenable.
What's your opinion on the vocals of say Slayer, which are neither very melodic or very harsh?
I also find it ridiculous when you say "harsh vocals are overused". That's like saying clean vocals are overused, or rapping is overused or operatic vocals are overused. They fit with the genres they are most associated with and therefore a majority of artists within those genres will use them.
You keep mentioning "excellent musicians" in your posts. Does this mean you only like music with technically proficient musicians? If so, I can't agree. There are bands like Venom, who aren't the best with their instruments who I like very much. Conversely, you have bands like Dream Theater and Brain Drill that are incredibly technical but I find them unlistenable.
Last time that I checked, musical elements not in line with the main melodies of a song are not automatically a form of percussion. That isn't something that is opinion-based. It's just fact.
There are hundreds of bands with traditional vocalizations that do not follow or guide the main melodies of their music, but your decision to state that this applies only to extreme vocals is also quite strange.
There are hundreds of bands with traditional vocalizations that do not follow or guide the main melodies of their music, but your decision to state that this applies only to extreme vocals is also quite strange.
Krow
Garbage Connoisseur
Melodic melodies of melody Christ.... Give me dissonance and headbangable shit.
Death metal isn't death metal without extreme vocals (even though someone will undoubtedly post some random one of example or some pretentious instrumental garbage no one that actually cares about death metal actually likes) point being, the vocals can't be a detriment to the music because it doesn't exist without them. Death metal is meant to be extreme, harmoniously singing about decapitating someone is stupid.
Death metal isn't death metal without extreme vocals (even though someone will undoubtedly post some random one of example or some pretentious instrumental garbage no one that actually cares about death metal actually likes) point being, the vocals can't be a detriment to the music because it doesn't exist without them. Death metal is meant to be extreme, harmoniously singing about decapitating someone is stupid.
Personally I can get into Slayer's vocals, as well as the vocals of other thrash bands, because while they can be shouted harshly, they are not distorted to the point that the melodic pitch in the voice is totally lost. In other words, they are just clean enough to maintain the melody, but just harsh enough to give the music an aggressive edge.
I feel that harsh vocals can have a place in metal, and they can be very effective if used in moderation and at the right times and places. I say they're overused because they are often used when I feel that they don't fit with the style of music they're used in. I don't agree that they fit with extreme metal, and I think that clean vocals could pull off the job much better and more effectively. Secondly, I say they're overused because of sheer number of bands in metal that employ them. I would like to see a higher percentage of bands in metal employ real singing in their music.
What I was saying about excellent musicians was that I have listened to a great number of progressive and technical death metal bands which clearly have some amazing musical skill and can produce some fantastic melodies. My point was that, in my opinion, a harsh, atonal voice over top of those melodies buries the melodies and drowns them out, rather than compliment them.
I feel that harsh vocals can have a place in metal, and they can be very effective if used in moderation and at the right times and places. I say they're overused because they are often used when I feel that they don't fit with the style of music they're used in. I don't agree that they fit with extreme metal, and I think that clean vocals could pull off the job much better and more effectively. Secondly, I say they're overused because of sheer number of bands in metal that employ them. I would like to see a higher percentage of bands in metal employ real singing in their music.
What I was saying about excellent musicians was that I have listened to a great number of progressive and technical death metal bands which clearly have some amazing musical skill and can produce some fantastic melodies. My point was that, in my opinion, a harsh, atonal voice over top of those melodies buries the melodies and drowns them out, rather than compliment them.
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
I can just imagine Dio singing about dismembering prostitutes and such.
I'm not sure how you could listen to any of these and think that extreme vocals are a percussive element.
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