Controversial opinions on metal

[RedStorm]

I addressed their objections in a way that was satisfactory, so I would suggest you go back a re-read my responses yourself. So far, no one here has successfully or reasonably shown that I am wrong. There's been a lot of subjective assertions that have been made, trying to pass itself off as objective. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

So to summarize:
You say I'm wrong for encapsulating the meaning of metal by turning to the sounds and styles of the bands that started the genre. You honestly think that's a reasonable claim? If you want to properly define a genre, what better way than to turn the bands that invented it? Again, it really comes off sounding like you're ignorant of the way that metal developed and originated from the beginning.

You say I'm wrong for drawing a distinction between traditional metal and extreme metal, and that I'm wrong for suggesting that this is much the like the distinction drawn between deathcore and death metal. Yet, many fans of death metal will do just this. They will claim that deathcore is not a proper evolution of the genre and isn't true metal. Again, I agree totally with this. This is not a wrong or unreasonable claim whatsoever. Hell, I hate deathcore way worse than death metal. So again, it comes down to where you draw the line. I draw the line between traditional metal and extreme metal, and I think the distinction in musical style is pretty damn clear.

I never claimed harsh vocals aren't a part of metal history. My claim is that they, along with their respective musical styles, are not proper interpretations of true heavy metal, which existed many years before they did. Just as deathcore is not a proper interpretation of death metal. I'm perfected entitled to that opinion, and if you're going to say it's wrong, you need to provide better reasons than what you have.

I understand what you mean, we all do, but it doesn't fucking matter.

 

[Yerfdaug]

I never claimed harsh vocals aren't a part of metal history. My claim is that they, along with their respective musical styles, are not proper interpretations of true heavy metal...

Lol?

 

[The Butt]

I never claimed harsh vocals aren't a part of metal history. My claim is that they, along with their respective musical styles, are not proper interpretations of true heavy metal, which existed many years before they did. Just as deathcore is not a proper interpretation of death metal. I'm perfected entitled to that opinion, and if you're going to say it's wrong, you need to provide better reasons than what you have.

You are not the grand arbiter of what is proper in metal, the artform does not revolve around you. You do not get to decide what is a "proper" or "valid" interpretation of heavy metal and what is not.

 

[The Ozzman]

This argument is tiresome and circular. Please end it.

 

[Omni]

Weird how things that GuiltySpawn likes that are different from originating metal bands are valid interpretations but things that he doesn't like aren't valid.

That's the last I'm saying on the subject.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I don't agree with him that harsh vocals are an invalid interpretation of metal, but he's right that there's no difference between excluding, say, black metal compared to excluding metalcore or nu metal.

 

[no country for old wainds]

anyone who evaluates music based on what genre it does or doesn't fit into isn't worth listening to anyway. who cares

 

[The Ozzman]

Please change the subject. Further posts on the subject will be deleted.

 

[Baroque]

The problem was that he kept trying to claim his opinion was objective and therefore better than ours. Opinions on music are subjective, his included. It's fine if his opinion dictates what he listens to, but he should not try to force that opinion on others. <- My last thoughts on that whole 'debate'.

 

[Omni]

Heaven and Hell by Black Sabbath is good, but frequently overrated. It has some of the weaker tracks in their discography such as "Walk Away" and "Wishing Well" that hinder greats such as "Die Young" and the title track. I've never understood why it is considered a nearly perfect album by a lot of people, even beyond the fact that Ozzy Sabbath is just generally better and more consistent overall.

 

[The Ozzman]

I really enjoy Wishing Well

 

[Omni]

I don't think that either one is a bad song, but they're very inconsistent with the mood of the other songs and "Walk Away" is one of their cheesier songs. It disrupts the tone that most of the other songs have in a noticeable way.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Walk Away is tied with Die Young for the best song on the album. Total uplifting metal anthem, classic Dio material even if it doesn't sound much like Sabbath. The attempted heavier/faster opening tracks are the weakest songs of the first two Dio-Sabbath albums.

 

[Baroque]

This is a recent change of opinion from the past couple months, but I've come to prefer Dio's solo work over his Sabbath and Rainbow work. He was the type of artist that really thrived creatively by going solo, and not having to fit into some other band's rubric.

Honestly every album he's been on has some quality songs (aside from maybe 1..)

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I sort of agree, but the very best songs he ever sang on were all written when he was with Rainbow (Kill the King, Gates of Babylon, Stargazer).

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

A change of metal subgenres doesn't mean something isn't metal. This is like saying Black Sabbath has virtually nothing in common with black metal, so one of them isn't metal.

What subgenre did they move to with TBA?

 

[Baroque]

I sort of agree, but the very best songs he ever sang on were all written when he was with Rainbow (Kill the King, Gates of Babylon, Stargazer).

Those are all great songs, but exploring his solo career made me realize they aren't necessarily his best songs. He has written at least songs of equal quality since then. And I think his solo stuff was more creative, at least looking back from a modern perspective. I'm sure stargazer and friends were very creative in their day.

 

[Baroque]

What subgenre did they move to with TBA?

I'd say heavy with some thrash elements instead of just thrash.

 

[Omni]

Walk Away is tied with Die Young for the best song on the album. Total uplifting metal anthem, classic Dio material even if it doesn't sound much like Sabbath. The attempted heavier/faster opening tracks are the weakest songs of the first two Dio-Sabbath albums.

It does sound a lot more like some of Dio's music outside of Sabbath, but I think it's not a good fit for this album and it's a pretty average track in that context. As I said, I don't think it's a bad song by any means.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

Saying the black album isn't metal is honestly one of the dumbest, most clueless thing i have EVER read on here. I'm pretty sure you'll look back at that statement and laugh a few years from now when you come to your senses.

Well let us explore this. I'm always up for a proper discussion (without resorting to childish remarks).

The Black Album has more in common musically with Load/Reload than the first four albums. This is just a fact. Load and Reload are mid tempo, slow modern heavy/hard rock records. TBA is the same, but perhaps with some "thrash" elements as @Baroque said. But Reload also has some thrash influences, so that doesn't go very far. Therefore, it isn't that much of a stretch to claim TBA as being closer to heavy rock than metal. That's where I'm coming from to start.

Another thing you need to consider is the authenticity of the music. Metal is a feeling. It's an attitude. It needs to be honest, among other things.. When a band brings a producer in studio to purposefully make every single song on an album radio friendly, it erases a lot of that aesthetic. At least in my point of view. I give the band credit for the album. It has some strong songs, to be sure. I know they took a year to write it and record it. But at the end of the day, it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

It's funny talking about this. After more than 20 years of listening to TBA I still have a very special place for it, but also such disdain and disgust at the same time. It's a funny thing not being able to reconcile those two feelings.