Controversial opinions on metal

[CiG]

... we used to trade plenty of dubbed tapes back in the days dude

You missed Baroque's point, he says that without tape trading, bands might not have even gotten a contract for their debut. People trading dubbed versions of a debut couldn't by definition help a band get signed to record that debut, since it obviously already exists.

 

[Baroque]

You missed Baroque's point, he says that without tape trading, bands might not have even gotten a contract for their debut. People trading dubbed versions of a debut couldn't by definition help a band get signed to record that debut, since it obviously already exists.

What I didn't say that

Cause of Death is not their debut dude

 

[CiG]

What I didn't say that

Cause of Death is not their debut dude

So you're saying that people dubbed Slowly We Rot and spread it around which likely helped Cause Of Death to be recorded? That's strange logic. It was more likely that the shows and tours that Slowly We Rot kicked off that helped their popularity = sophomore contract.

Sure, trading tapes or trading songs on napster, what's the difference? Either way the prior owner is likely to keep a copy for themselves, duplicating tapes was rampant

Tape trading started with bands sending out their own demos or rehearsals, the intention being that it's free. The free sharing of music by the actual artists themselves.

 

[Baroque]

So you're saying that people dubbed Slowly We Rot and spread it around which likely helped Cause Of Death to be recorded? That's strange logic. It was more likely that the shows and tours that Slowly We Rot kicked off that helped their popularity = sophomore contract.



Tape trading started with bands sending out their own demos or rehearsals, the intention being that it's free. The free sharing of music by the actual artists themselves.

1) yes, the band needed funding to make a 2nd album

2) that's not what tape trading was in general. That's not the kind of tape trading I was talking about. It was friends giving friends dubbed tapes like we share YouTube links now.

 

[Satanstoenail]

I posted an article a couple of years back that covers a lot of what you guys are talking about with regard to downloading, intellectual property and the state of the music industry. Steve Albini offers a pretty interesting perspective:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...nis-keynote-address-at-face-the-music-in-full

"So there’s no reason to insist that other obsolete bureaux and offices of the lapsed era be brought along into the new one. The music industry has shrunk. In shrinking it has rung out the middle, leaving the bands and the audiences to work out their relationship from the ends. I see this as both healthy and exciting. If we’ve learned anything over the past 30 years it’s that left to its own devices bands and their audiences can get along fine: the bands can figure out how to get their music out in front of an audience and the audience will figure out how to reward them.

The internet has facilitated the most direct and efficient, compact relationship ever between band and audience. And I do not mourn the loss of the offices of inefficiencies that died in the process. I suppose some people are out of work. But the same things happened when the automobile replaced the horse, and all the blacksmiths had to adapt, spending their time making garden gates rather than horseshoes."

"From my part, I believe the very concept of exclusive intellectual property with respect to recorded music has come to a natural end, or something like an end. Technology has brought to a head a need to embrace the meaning of the word “release”, as in bird or fart. It is no longer possible to maintain control over digitised material and I don’t believe the public good is served by trying to.

There is great public good by letting creative material lapse into the public ownership. The copyright law has been modified so extensively in the past decades that now this essentially never happens, creating absurdities whenever copyright is invoked. There’s a huge body of work that is not legally in the public domain, though its rights holder, authors and creators have died or disappeared as businesses. And this material, from a legal standpoint now removed from our culture – nobody may copy it or re-release it because it’s still subject to copyright."

 

[CiG]

1) yes, the band needed funding to make a 2nd album

2) that's not what tape trading was in general. That's not the kind of tape trading I was talking about. It was friends giving friends dubbed tapes like we share YouTube links now.

I don't see how illegally dubbing owned material helped Obituary get a follow up contract for their sophomore.

 

[Baroque]

I don't see how illegally dubbing owned material helped Obituary get a follow up contract for their sophomore.

People heard it illegally, then paid to see obituary live. Or they bought an obituary shirt. Or they bought the album proper. Or they passed it onto 3 more friends and one of them bought it. If those people never heard the album the band would have never made these sales. Tape trading was free marketing really. Dubbed tapes were often poor quality like YouTube videos..

 

[CiG]

People heard it illegally, then paid to see obituary live. Or they bought an obituary shirt. Or they bought the album proper. Or they passed it onto 3 more friends and one of them bought it. If those people never heard the album the band would have never made these sales. Tape trading was free marketing really. Dubbed tapes were often poor quality like YouTube videos..

There is no way to prove this line of argument though, if it is true then I would say it's likely quite unimportant in how Obituary got their sophomore contract. If only there were stats on sales upon release.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Your exact words, bold for emphasis:


Even if it was just an afterthought, I don't see how saying "it doesn't belong to me" would not imply that you consider dumpster-diving to be theft.

Not sure how obvious I have to make it that I was talking about the TV exactly like I would an album that is OOP since he insisted on using that analogy to try to act like I was dumb for not wanting to download an album. I don't own it so I won't take it. I explained this to you already despite it being obvious in the first place. Again, thanks for your time.

 

[Baroque]

There is no way to prove this line of argument though, if it is true then I would say it's likely quite unimportant in how Obituary got their sophomore contract. If only there were stats on sales upon release.

I don't think it really needs proving, having lived through it and seen it happen personally, but if you don't want to believe it fine. Also it's not just the financial support but people supporting the Style of music, that's very important. they were getting loads of positive feedback from tape traders and others which helped encourage them to make another album in the style.

 

[CiG]

Hearsay arguments in this vein just don't interest me. I prefer proof.

 

[Baroque]

Hearsay arguments in this vein just don't interest me. I prefer proof.

That's cool, but some things are simply unprovable, and you have to describe them some other way. If you only talk about provable things then you are severely limiting yourself in topics.

Today I gave a 20 minute presentation to a room full of NASA scientists. None of it was provable since it was statistics based. But they still found the findings worth discussing for the next 30 minutes.

 

[CiG]

That's cool, but some things are simply unprovable, and you have to describe them some other way. If you only talk about provable things then you are severely limiting yourself in topics.

Fully agreed. What I'm complaining about is more just the fact that we've come to a point in our discussion where, without moving into areas of proof, we will just be circle jerking in disagreement.

 

[Baroque]

Alright then, we shall clear the forum for the next pair of needlessly argumentative folks

 

[MrTagoMago]

Rock the casbah is one of the greatest songs ever.

 

[Baroque]

Rock the casbah is one of the greatest songs ever.

Lol wtf

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I've never heard it before but I'm liking it. Groovy. Almost lost my shit when he started talking about "the in crowd". I should get into The Clash. I could put a London Calling bumper sticker on my car and everything.

 

[CiG]

Alright then, we shall clear the forum for the next pair of needlessly argumentative folks

This is why I like you, you're reasonable.

 

[MrTagoMago]

I've never heard it before but I'm liking it. Groovy. Almost lost my shit when he started talking about "the in crowd". I should get into The Clash. I could put a London Calling bumper sticker on my car and everything.

London Calling is a great album that imo for the most part does live up to the hype. I know a lot of people who are bigger into punk would fight me on that but I like it a lot besides it's more post punk and new wave than straight up punk. Rock the Casbah has always been a favorite of mine though it's groovy like you said as well as catchy, quirky, and and has some epic sound effects.

 

[Serjeant Grumbles]

Not sure how obvious I have to make it that I was talking about the TV exactly like I would an album that is OOP since he insisted on using that analogy to try to act like I was dumb for not wanting to download an album. I don't own it so I won't take it. I explained this to you already despite it being obvious in the first place. Again, thanks for your time.

Saying "I don't own it so I won't take it" makes no sense in such a scenario. No one has any claim of ownership to discarded items; there's an overwhelming consensus that you relinquish such claims when you throw it away in the first place. The scenario he laid out leaves virtually no possibility that the TV was simply misplaced. It would make about as much sense to say you wouldn't forage wild mushrooms from the forest because you don't own them.

You did not argue that taking discarded items was not analogous to downloading OOP albums, even though you could have gone that route. Since you did not, I'm focusing on the fact that you are willing to let a perfectly good TV go to waste, and you consider that a claim of moral high ground. If you already have two TV's, just donate the new one instead of letting it sit in a ditch.