Controversial opinions on metal

[HamburgerBoy]

Sure, obviously there are some, but doom metal has the fewest quality/original deep cuts that I'm aware of. When you do find a supposed forgotten doom metal gem, it's usually a glorified gothic rock or slowcore album anyways.

Keyword, "often". Savatage didn't exactly reinvent the wheel, but I don't think either of us would argue that it takes away from them being as legendary as they are.

Who does Savatage clone? They had a pretty distinctive sound.

black metal is probably the absolute worst sub genre for ripping off its forefathers, i'm surprised hbb isn't making this argument for me lol

Most black metal has too few riffs to even be accused of that. Like, nine out of ten times a given black metal album will have completely predictable riffs, but it won't make me think "Hey this sounds exactly like <band X>". Black metal is like an extremely pretentious self-absorbed version of the blues, doom metal is like djent.

Like, someone name three bands that are blatant ripoffs of DMDS-era Mayhem or Blaze-era Darkthrone, I'd love to hear them.

 

[no country for old wainds]

let's be honest, there arent exactly loads of major innovations in metal in general, it's mostly minor increments. most death metal could be deemed a morbid angel, death, autopsy or -ation rip off in broad terms, with BM it's usually the norwegian bands and even those pretty brazenly worshipped bathory, and etcetc.

doom definitely has a worship of sabbath at its core, but metal had moved away from sabbath when 'doom' really rose up as a movement (and then got another resurgence with rev biz), so in a way it was quite revolutionary again. i don't really think most of the iconic doom bands are any more derivative than those of other genres, which isn't to say they aren't derivative at all.

edit re hbb: nobody seems to rip off those albums so much, but loooooads rip off HLTO and TH and to a lesser extent PH, for whatever reason.

i think doom has the fewest original cuts just because there are fewer doom albums, it may be the most niche sub-genre. if we're talking ratios i don't think it's much different though really.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Didn't say Savatage's sound wasn't distinctive, but they also didn't make much of any honest to God sonic innovations.

 

[CiG]

Second-tier bands are often labeled so due to their lack of innovation. Why shouldn't a genre be labeled accordingly?

Second-tier means lack of innovation? I never knew that. I've never personally given that much weight to innovation in metal so maybe that's why I didn't know it meant that.

Doom metal was never meant to be much more than Sabbathian worship so it's not really worth debating, they wear their influences more on their sleeves than black metal most of the time, though doom metal has perhaps accidentally spawned many cool bands with distinct sounds. Scald comes to mind.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

let's be honest, there arent exactly loads of major innovations in metal in general, it's mostly minor increments. most death metal could be deemed a morbid angel, death, autopsy or -ation rip off in broad terms, with BM it's usually the norwegian bands and even those pretty brazenly worshipped bathory, and etcetc.

doom definitely has a worship of sabbath at its core, but metal had moved away from sabbath when 'doom' really rose up as a movement (and then got another resurgence with rev biz), so in a way it was quite revolutionary again. i don't really think most of the iconic doom bands are any more derivative than those of other genres, which isn't to say they aren't derivative at all.

edit re hbb: nobody seems to rip off those albums so much, but loooooads rip off HLTO and TH and to a lesser extent PH, for whatever reason.

i think doom has the fewest original cuts just because there are fewer doom albums, it may be the most niche sub-genre. if we're talking ratios i don't think it's much different though really.

I'm not talking about the most iconic bands; Trouble, Saint Vitus, and Candlemass all get a pass. Like any band they had their influences and probably the occasional borrowed riff, but altogether they had a fully unique sound and aesthetic that couldn't be confused with anyone else. Pentagram, The Obsessed, and others, while still overall quality bands with some original ideas, still rest firmly on the laurels of a single band, Black Sabbath, and those are still among the biggest names. You get more obscure than that and already you're faced with one totally unoriginal clone after the next.

No other classic metal sub-genre has such a limited scope. The three -ations alone had a completely different approach to death metal and each could probably be credited their own sub-sub-genre of size comparable to funeral doom or whatever else.

Sure, there are a lot of black metal clones of the most obvious material, no denying that. It has the lowest musical and emotional barrier-to-entry of any form of metal music (possibly all music). Despite that, there's still a lot of new stuff happening, even if it involves shitty genre fusions or try-hard experimentation. Doom metal doesn't try.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Didn't say Savatage's sound wasn't distinctive, but they also didn't make much of any honest to God sonic innovations.

I'm not asking for outright innovation, but just any distinctive elements. Jon Oliva had a different (pretty weird really) voice, they tuned lower than most trad, they had a couple trademark riffs, incorporated glammy hooks and intervals with near-thrashy speed and aggression on occasion, and after a few albums they pioneered that Broadway metal thing which many power metal bands have taken after since then. There's no confusing a Savatage song with another band.

Second-tier means lack of innovation? I never knew that. I've never personally given that much weight to innovation in metal so maybe that's why I didn't know it meant that.

Doom metal was never meant to be much more than Sabbathian worship so it's not really worth debating, they wear their influences more on their sleeves than black metal most of the time, though doom metal has perhaps accidentally spawned many cool bands with distinct sounds. Scald comes to mind.

What is your definition of second-tier?

 

[CiG]

Revelation?

Doom metal doesn't try.

Yes it does, it pours its heart and soul into its music. It just doesn't try to innovate.

What is your definition of second-tier?

B-grade, shit, crummy, average, are the things I had in mind.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

I'm not asking for outright innovation, but just any distinctive elements. Jon Oliva had a different (pretty weird really) voice, they tuned lower than most trad, they had a couple trademark riffs, incorporated glammy hooks and intervals with near-thrashy speed and aggression on occasion, and after a few albums they pioneered that Broadway metal thing which many power metal bands have taken after since then. There's no confusing a Savatage song with another band.

Gotcha, I was under the impression that you were demanding they innovate, or generate something. You don't have to describe Savatage to me, I've been a fanboy for decades, I'm cognizant of all that.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

B-grade, shit, crummy, average, are the things I had in mind.

aka most doom metal.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I'm not talking about the most iconic bands; Trouble, Saint Vitus, and Candlemass all get a pass. Like any band they had their influences and probably the occasional borrowed riff, but altogether they had a fully unique sound and aesthetic that couldn't be confused with anyone else. Pentagram, The Obsessed, and others, while still overall quality bands with some original ideas, still rest firmly on the laurels of a single band, Black Sabbath, and those are still among the biggest names. You get more obscure than that and already you're faced with one totally unoriginal clone after the next.

No other classic metal sub-genre has such a limited scope. The three -ations alone had a completely different approach to death metal and each could probably be credited their own sub-sub-genre of size comparable to funeral doom or whatever else.

Sure, there are a lot of black metal clones of the most obvious material, no denying that. It has the lowest musical and emotional barrier-to-entry of any form of metal music (possibly all music). Despite that, there's still a lot of new stuff happening, even if it involves shitty genre fusions or try-hard experimentation. Doom metal doesn't try.

fair enough. i'd argue pentagram very much had their own identity too (in the '70s at least), so maybe i draw the lines a little differently. either way, it's worth keeping in mind that sabbath were an unusually varied band; it could be argued that in terms of range they are the equivalent of a few different bands in later sub-genres. as worship of a metal band goes, "sabbath worship" is about the least limiting description there is. although to an extent you could counter this by saying a lot of bands draw from the same single aspect of sabbath's sound, which is probably true.

since you mentioned it, i think there's probably more innovation in funeral doom than any other sub-genre of doom actually. i only have a cursory knowledge but nearly all the bands i've heard are quite distinct from one another and seemingly try to push boundaries in a way that trad doom doesn't so much.

 

[CiG]

aka most doom metal.

Bullshit. Most doom metal is good, it's a minority that sucks within doom metal. But at this point I wouldn't expect you to agree anyway, as you generally have very out there opinions on music. Also you still haven't listened to Trespass so f.o.a.d.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

fair enough. i'd argue pentagram very much had their own identity too (in the '70s at least), so maybe i draw the lines a little differently. either way, it's worth keeping in mind that sabbath were an unusually varied band; it could be argued that in terms of range they are the equivalent of a few different bands in later sub-genres. as worship of a metal band goes, "sabbath worship" is about the least limiting description there is. although to an extent you could counter this by saying a lot of bands draw from the same single aspect of sabbath's sound, which is probably true.

since you mentioned it, i think there's probably more innovation in funeral doom than any other sub-genre of doom actually. i only have a cursory knowledge but nearly all the bands i've heard are quite distinct from one another and seemingly try to push boundaries in a way that trad doom doesn't so much.

I wouldn't call the 70s Pentagram I've heard doom metal though.

Bullshit. Most doom metal is good, it's a minority that sucks within doom metal. But at this point I wouldn't expect you to agree anyway, as you generally have very out there opinions on music. Also you still haven't listened to Trespass so f.o.a.d.

Most of everything is crap tbh.

Leave a reminder on my bathroom mirror and I'll get right on that, hun. <3

 

[CiG]

Cunt.

 

[The Ozzman]

I wouldn't call the 70s Pentagram I've heard doom metal though.

I'd call it rock tbh.

Good to know, so do you need more obscure acts? Is that it?

No, I don't need 4th tier Darkthrone knockoffs. It's more a lack of funds than anything because I would rather buy some of this shit than listen to it on Spotify out of order.

B-grade, shit, crummy, average.

So second tier has differing degrees, then?

 

[Vilden]

Like, someone name three bands that are blatant ripoffs of DMDS-era Mayhem or Blaze-era Darkthrone, I'd love to hear them.

Yeah little late on this but, there are quite a few bands that are obviously inspired by DMDS, the whole (mostly swedish) "worship him" orthodox black metal style like Ondskapt, Watain, Ofermod, Heresi, Funeral Mist, etc. for example.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

i think there's probably more innovation in funeral doom than any other sub-genre of doom actually. i only have a cursory knowledge but nearly all the bands i've heard are quite distinct from one another and seemingly try to push boundaries in a way that trad doom doesn't so much.

Interesting. I'd definitely say that the masters of the subgenre, ie Thergothon, Skepticism, Mournful Congregation, Tyranny/Wormphlegm to name a few, all put their own unique stamp on it but at the same time there's a lot of fly by night bands that just take the base foundations of the sound and call it a day. It might be minimal to play but its such an easy style to fuck up because so much of it is rooted in mood and not everyone can pull it off like the aforementioned bands. Though there are some newer bands that are on their own trips, Profetus and Funeral Moth spring to mind.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Yeah little late on this but, there are quite a few bands that are obviously inspired by DMDS, the whole (mostly swedish) "worship him" orthodox black metal style like Ondskapt, Watain, Ofermod, Heresi, Funeral Mist, etc. for example.

Specifics? I've heard a little Watain and Funeral Mist and don't remember either giving me DMDS vibes, but that would have been a long time ago and I could've heard the wrong albums/songs.

EDIT: Actually I take it back partially, I think I'm confusing Funeral Mist with another band because I don't recognize either of their album covers.

Oh yeah, Dark Funeral is the band I'm thinking of.

 

[Phylactery]

Rabid Death's Curse and Casus Luciferi have pretty noticeable influences from Mayhem.

Funeral Mist is shit from what I remember, but I assume he's talking about Salvation.

 

[Phylactery]

black metal is probably the absolute worst sub genre for ripping off its forefathers, i'm surprised hbb isn't making this argument for me lol

I don't really think this is true. Black metal is probably the most diverse genre of metal. While there are obviously plenty of derivative acts, I don't think its more noticeable than with any other metal genre. On the flip side, there's plenty of weird releases and genre mash ups coming from the genre.

You're just a black metal pessimist . I was surprised to see you pick a black metal album as your album of the year.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Death metal is objectively the most diverse genre of metal. It should really be split into multiple genres of its own, because it's too broadly defined if anything.