Controversial opinions on metal

[H.P. Lovecraft]

What in the fuck do jazz or "classicism" have to do with metal? Metal is fundamentally a form of pop music, the same as rock music in general.

A fundamental part of what set Black Sabbath's music apart as metal were the jazz and classical influences of the music fused with the volume, dynamics, lyricism, and psychedelic rock, blues rock, hard rock influences. The jazz is most notable in Bill's drumming and Tony's acoustic instrumentals, the classicism manifests in various ways, but most notably in some of the scales and modes they use, and in the eponymous Black Sabbath riff which comes from a standard blues chord progression and the Mars movement of Gustav Holst's The Planets.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

No rock band had ever used jazzy drumming nor quotations from famous classical pieces before Black Sabbath. Bands like Exodus or Obituary that tend to lack either are not metal. Got it.

 

[PrincessHades]

You've been hanging out on the Black-Sabbath.com forums too long. They've poisoned you with shitty ideas.

I already told you, the only reason people call those bands metal is because at that point, when they were new, metal was in its infancy and hadn't found its identity yet. People were calling bands "metal", when they hadn't even figured out what metal was and wasn't, much less what bands to call it. Genres evolve, definitions evolve, this is fact; and people eventually realized there was a line separating bands like The Who, Steppenwolf, etc, and bands like Priest, Grim Reaper, etc, because claiming they're even remotely from the same genre is ridiculously stupid.

tl;dr version: You are using an antiquated, antediluvian definition for what constitutes metal, and gtfo with that shit; nobody seriously believes what you're saying other than geriatrics who don't know any better (and apparently impressionable 16-year olds also).

You mean to say that I've been hanging around old people for too long? Sorry, but I find them more respectable.

Honestly, I haven't been posting there much. Either the site has gone way downhill or I've grown less naive. The site has never been the same ever since Joe closed the Black metal appreciation thread. You are definitely right in your accusations of them being closed minded...they have little tolerance for any extreme metal genres, and anything that isn't heavy is also trash to them. I made a new black metal thread, and it's seen a lot of activity, but the closing of the last one represents something...

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

No rock band had ever used jazzy drumming nor quotations from famous classical pieces before Black Sabbath. Bands like Exodus or Obituary that tend to lack either are not metal. Got it.

And, you missed the point. It was Sabbath's fusion of these things with blues rock, hard rock, psychedelic rock, dark, occult themes and lyrics, etc. that created metal. Of course other rock bands had done these things, but never were they combined with the other stuff I mentioned in the way Sabbath did.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

And, you missed the point. It was Sabbath's fusion of these things with blues rock, hard rock, psychedelic rock, dark, occult themes and lyrics, etc. that created metal. Of course other rock bands had done these things, but never were they combined with the other stuff I mentioned in the way Sabbath did.

So if the fusion of all those things is what defines metal, why is it that 99% of supposed metal bands that exist today fail to contain even half of those elements? I think you could argue that, based on our recent non-metal playlist, that Coven and VDGG and probably others fused most of those things independently of Sabbath as well.

Ultimately metal is defined by presence of metal riffs, which are defined by bands like Sabbath, Purple, and Priest using particular riffs to an extent that greatly exceeded other heavy rock bands, until a self-cycling musical scene centered around those riffs at the expense of others was formed.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

So if the fusion of all those things is what defines metal, why is it that 99% of supposed metal bands that exist today fail to contain even half of those elements? I think you could argue that, based on our recent non-metal playlist, that Coven and VDGG and probably others fused most of those things independently of Sabbath as well.
Ultimately metal is defined by presence of metal riffs, which are defined by bands like Sabbath, Purple, and Priest using particular riffs to an extent that greatly exceeded other heavy rock bands, until a self-cycling musical scene centered around those riffs at the expense of others was formed.

Because the music evolved. Priest, Maiden, and Motörhead among others all exerted their influences on the music, altering and evolving it beyond its initial state. They fused them, not all of them I might add, but not in the way Sabbath did. The nature of its riffs is certainly a part of it as well.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Because the music evolved. Priest, Maiden, and Motörhead among others all exerted their influences on the music, altering and evolving it beyond its initial state. They fused them, not all of them I might add, but not in the way Sabbath did. The nature of its riffs is certainly a part of it as well.

So why is it that virtually no other metal bands involved in the evolution of metal tried taking after the jazz aspect until the early/mid-80s at the absolute earliest (and that's limited to basically just Megadeth and Watchtower)? I mean you could mention Simon Phillips but ultimately he was a session drummer and it wasn't his jazz chops that defined Priest. Even the occult thing was limited for Sabbath themselves, let alone bands like Priest and Motorhead with barely a trace of it.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

So why is it that virtually no other metal bands involved in the evolution of metal tried taking after the jazz aspect until the early/mid-80s at the absolute earliest (and that's limited to basically just Megadeth and Watchtower)? I mean you could mention Simon Phillips but ultimately he was a session drummer and it wasn't his jazz chops that defined Priest. Even the occult thing was limited for Sabbath themselves, let alone bands like Priest and Motorhead with barely a trace of it.

Not sure. Why did it take so long for stoner doom to come around despite being so prevalent in Sabbath's sound? Because that's simply when it happened, for better or worse.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Not sure. Why did it take so long for stoner doom to come around despite being so prevalent in Sabbath's sound? Because that's simply when it happened, for better or worse.

There are Sabbath-y rock bands from the 70s that would probably be called stoner doom had they existed 20 years later, or at least got very close. There's an obvious parentage from Sabbath to, say, post-Forest Cathedral. Same goes for early speed/thrash riffs in Sabbath, Queen, Priest, and others and the kinds of riffs that Metallica would soon make their staple.

But jazz never became a significant component of metal. There are some tech-metal bands that can throw in some fusion guitar or jazzy fills but then you may as well say that folk influences or ambiance or literally anything that some guy slapped together with metal riffs is a fundamental part of metal.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

There are Sabbath-y rock bands from the 70s that would probably be called stoner doom had they existed 20 years later, or at least got very close. There's an obvious parentage from Sabbath to, say, post-Forest Cathedral. Same goes for early speed/thrash riffs in Sabbath, Queen, Priest, and others and the kinds of riffs that Metallica would soon make their staple.

But jazz never became a significant component of metal. There are some tech-metal bands that can throw in some fusion guitar or jazzy fills but then you may as well say that folk influences or ambiance or literally anything that some guy slapped together with metal riffs is a fundamental part of metal.

I suppose the reason I'd argue for jazz being a fundamental, was because it was so present in Sabbath, the very first. Maybe that's misguided.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I wouldn't say that it's "so present". Certainly not by the time of Master of Reality and beyond, which was their first full-fledged metal album.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

I wouldn't say that it's "so present". Certainly not by the time of Master of Reality and beyond, which was their first full-fledged metal album.

Paranoid and the eponymous are oozing with it, and it's very much still there in the percussion and acoustic instrumentals on MoR. It regains fervency on Vol. 4 and Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath too.

 

[CiG]

Autistic debate part 7283489273474.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Autistic debate part 7283489273474.

Hey, you take that back, this is only quasi-autistic.

 

[CiG]

Wanna debate about it?

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Wanna debate about it?

You see, the volume of cubic autism per autist is 3.1415 here, so we can't say it's fully autistic until we have actual radial measurements of the physical quantities of autism pervading the area.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

So, despite the explicit involvement of Mr. HamburgerBoy, we can't yet scientifically verify this as full autism.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Paranoid and the eponymous are oozing with it, and it's very much still there in the percussion and acoustic instrumentals on MoR. It regains fervency on Vol. 4 and Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath too.

Orchid is supposed to be jazz? lmao.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Orchid is supposed to be jazz? lmao.

Listen to the arpeggios at the start:



There's a clear jazz lineage here.



Plus the blatant classicism and folkier element.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The chord progressions in Orchid sound much more classical to me, doesn't sound much like the above song other than both being based on the same very basic rhythm. If a brief acoustic classical doodle qualifies, then let's just call all of progressive rock metal.