Controversial opinions on metal

[TechnicalBarbarity]

I actually tend to disagree with Black Sabbath being called a doom metal band so I can sympathize here, but setting Sabbath aside, it happened with bands like Pentagram and Pagan Altar and very few would dispute that they're doom bands.

not sure what or who you're responding to since i said doom was based on bands that played a style of music that already had a solidified sound. And tbh i have no problem with Black Sabbath being labeled DOOM metal because that is where the sound came form. None of the bands YOU AND TERA(yea im lumping you two together) mentioned are where the metalcore subgenre or the sound came from. How do you not see the difference here?

I'm just going by what Fox has himself said in interviews.

are any of those interviews form the 90's?? No, right? got it.

He didn't create that term to describe mallcore though, that's my overall point. He created it to describe bands like Shai Hulud.

doesnt matter one bit, because what you're referring to as mallcore IS the genre of metalcore.

Anything can be, the point is I'm not.

Youre not what? Again, i was responding to you and tera, since you guys both clearly do not know what the subgenre of metalcore is. You can for some reason keep getting offended by this but that's not my problem

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Look instead of continuing to argue about this shit im just going to make this clear ....

influential bands =/= proto this or proto that bands

creating a term =/= creating a genre/subgenre of music

heavy hardcore =/= metalcore

cro mags, dri, agnostic front etc =/= "proto-metalcore"

anyone who disagrees is a fucking idiot

 

[CiG]

You think I'm offended over a typical autistic genre debate?

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

You think I'm offended over a typical autistic genre debate?

anyone can be, but the point is we are not

 

[CiG]

anyone can be, but the point is we are not

Youre not what?

Calling anything "proto-metalcore."

not sure what or who you're responding to since i said doom was based on bands that played a style of music that already had a solidified sound. And tbh i have no problem with Black Sabbath being labeled DOOM metal because that is where the sound came form. None of the bands YOU AND TERA(yea im lumping you two together) mentioned are where the metalcore subgenre or the sound came from. How do you not see the difference here?

So what subgenre is Shai Hulud? Let's try and cut through all the minutiae here. If what I refer to as mallcore is what metalcore is and all that it is, why are there albums released alongside mallcore albums (as in, not old albums retroactively labeled as metalcore) and both styles are called metalcore?

are any of those interviews form the 90's?? No, right? got it.

Not that I know of, and fair enough because we all know musicians lie their asses off about shit like this (eg Fenriz being "a thrasher since '84"). At the same time however all I have to go on is hearsay.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Calling anything "proto-metalcore."

dude, im telling you that proto-metalcore(the term tera used) can be used to describe the bands that you BOTH are incorrectly referring to as metalcore.

So what subgenre is Shai Hulud? Let's try and cut through all the minutiae here. If what I refer to as mallcore is what metalcore is and all that it is, why are there albums released alongside mallcore albums (as in, not old albums retroactively labeled as metalcore) and both styles are called metalcore?

They're heavy hardcore band/a true metallic hardcore band ... as i stated numerous times. They incorrectly get labelled as metalcore by some people, the same way say Pantera, Lamb of God and a bunch of other groove metal bands sometimes get incorrectly labeled as thrash metal or how some death metal bands get labelled as technical death metal, etc. These subgenres have solidified sounds that you cant just lump other bands into. And Mallcore is just a term people like me and you use to trash metalcore and other bands, so lets not sit here and pretend that "mallcore" is some legit genre that you're using to describe any bands let alone calling it a "style of music".

Not that I know of, and fair enough because we all know musicians lie their asses off about shit like this (eg Fenriz being "a thrasher since '84"). At the same time however all I have to go on is hearsay.

yeah, and even if he did my whole point is that coming up with a term in no way equates to "inventing a sub genre".

can we fucking drop this now or do you want to argue for another few pages about one of the shitstains on metal that is metalcore?

 

[CiG]

They're heavy hardcore band/a true metallic hardcore band ... as i stated numerous times. They incorrectly get labelled as metalcore by some people, the same way say Pantera, Lamb of God and a bunch of other groove metal bands sometimes get incorrectly labeled as thrash metal or how some death metal bands get labelled as technical death metal, etc. These subgenres have solidified sounds that you cant just lump other bands into.

So Shai Hulud incorrectly label themselves?

And Mallcore is just a term people like me and you use to trash metalcore and other bands, so lets not sit here and pretend that "mallcore" is some legit genre that you're using to describe any bands let alone calling it a "style of music".

Obviously I don't think mallcore is a legit genre.

can we fucking drop this now or do you want to argue for another few pages about one of the shitstains on metal that is metalcore?

Happily, we'll never agree on this.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

So Shai Hulud incorrectly label themselves?

they are using a term to describe their sound(which again has nothing to do with a subgenre name hence death metal, black metal etc ... those are not sound descriptors), which is metallic hardcore as you stated. If they say they are "metalcore" which they DID NOT in the 90's ... then that would be incorrect 100% regardless of who says it. Lamb of God can call themselves a modern thrash band, doesnt make them one.

Obviously I don't think mallcore is a legit genre.

Mallcore means nothing, metalcore is the genre that belongs to those lames you keep calling mallcore as if its some legit title.

 

[CiG]

The ultimate controversy:

Slipknot > Slayer.

...Don't worry. I respect Slayer for their earlier material, but it just isn't my kind of metal at all.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

 

[Allfader]

influential bands =/= proto this or proto that bands

It depends on the level and kind of influence. No definite answer there.

For example, what do you think about Celtic Frost/Hellhammer regarding death and black metal? Both bands definitely provided strong elements that became key songwriting/production staples of what came after them. So, if they aren't considering full death/black metal bands they at least deserve the proto- prefix.

Now, Mercyful Fate and Morbid Angel have been quoted as vast influences by most of black metal musicians, but I don't think anyone would call them black metal.

creating a term =/= creating a genre/subgenre of music

Again, it depends. Meshuggah coined the term djent, which is a more or less decent umbrella term for their copycats, based on their specific riffing/rhythm qualities. It became a sort of style, based on particular musical elements that can be traced back to their originators.

Now, I don't consider Venom to be a black metal band. They might have brought up the term, but they never made black metal. Even Hellhammer was closer to the black metal sound than what I personally consider to be established from Bathory's debut onwards.

heavy hardcore =/= metalcore

Sure. Heavy hardcore would be more like crust, not metalcore.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

again, coming up with a term does NOT equate to the creation of a music genre/subgenre. Don't know why that part of what i said would confuse you.

 

[Sedition and Pockets]

In what realm of the multiverse is fucking Venom not black metal?

 

[crimsonfloyd]

In what realm of the multiverse is fucking Venom not black metal?

Reality. They're a heavy/speed metal band who named a song and an album Black Metal, but other than the lyrics, they possess none of the characteristics of black metal. And if you're going off lyrics, then you logically have to count Slayer, Black Sabbath and 10,000 other non-black metal bands who sing about evil shit as black metal.

 

[Krow]

But no first wave black metal is black metal any way so it’s always been dumb.

how is Greek black metal even black metal? Those bands sound closer to extreme metal spawns of Sabbath than much else.

 

[no country for old wainds]

i don’t agree that no first wave BM is black metal, but yeah venom will always be nwobhm to me. the return is when the first wave started to be recognisably BM.

 

[Sirjack]

I don't know. Power metal offers a plethora of very horrible bands.



If we're suggesting black metal for death metal fans, I'll throw out Aeternus's Beyond the Wandering Moon.

l didn't even remember this @Einherjar86 but you rec'd Aeternus - Beyond The Wandering Moon to me back when, and l gotta say, it's perhaps the only BM album l ever felt a slight affinity for apart from Meads of Asphodel and The Murder of Jesus the Jew. Still need to source this on vinyl. cheers ears

 

[no country for old wainds]

have you heard the follow-up? pretty great also

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Beyond the Wandering Moon is basically strum-a-strum indie shit in black metal clothing. Horrible album.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Beyond the Wandering Moon is basically for these types of dudes ....

 

[CiG]

Damn I gotta listen to it more I guess.