Controversial opinions on metal

[Belligerent]

Workmanlike. Drab. Uninteresting. Featureless, soulless, utterly umemorable, and just plain boring. Homogenized processed progressive power metal product.

Nice, and the same goes for Dream Theatre.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

True

 

[Woolie Wool]

Nice, and the same goes for Dream Theatre.

It's hard to be generic when you invented the sound. It's like saying 1970s Black Sabbath generic doom metal.

I personally consider songs like the aforementioned songs, "The Ytse Jam", "Octavarium" (overextended intro aside), and "Learning to Live" extraordinary feats of songwriting. When you have 10-20 minute songs that every Dream Theater fan knows start to finish by heart, that's songwriting.

As for their undeniable decline from what they were in the early '90s, well, they got old in a young man's genre, although Systematic Chaos is pretty damn good when the average old band is burping up Death Magnetic or The Crucible of Man.

 

[waif]

If this somehow causes my argument to fail, think of, say, Maiden instead, though I'd rather not since they're almost on par with Dream Theater in my book. Almost.

Almost? Dream Theater are nowhere close to Maiden. Back in the late 70's Iron Maiden discovered a secret that was unfortunately not passed on to the next generation of prog bands: the secret of writing interesting, memorable songs that kick fucking ass and become absolute classics worshipped by legions of fans for their ungodly awesomeness.

Pagan's Mind are terrible songwriters because you pretty much forget the songs as soon as they end

Sounds a lot like Dream Theater, to be honest...

It's hard to be generic when you invented the sound.

It doesn't matter if you invented the sound, if tons of bands surpass you you have become generic; there's no point in listening to you because other people do it better.

 

[Woolie Wool]

I think the whole problem with prog metal is that no one has surpassed Dream Theater (Symphony X come close, but they actually have an identity and sound that is all theirs, even if they've been compromising it and going mainstream more and more since Thomas Miller quit the band). Most prog metal bands see fit to merely crank out pale imitations of Images and Words, Scenes From a Memory, and sometimes Awake, all of which crumble into dust before the originals.

What's really ironic is that the Dream Theater songs that suck tend to be the ones designed to be less progressive and more accessible--"Status Seeker" (not many may be familiar with this one because it was from their '89 debut, but it was DT doing '80s glam rock, and it was dire), "You Not Me", "Honor Thy Father", "These Walls", "Constant Motion", etc.

 

[waif]

I would say that Orphaned Land, Queensryche, Opeth, and 3 are way better than Dream Theater. If you're wondering why nobody plays Dream Theater-style stuff in away that isn't incredibly tedious, it's probably because it's not possible.

 

[Woolie Wool]

Queensryche are not really progressive metal. They are heavy metal/USPM with a slight progressive tinge. They are no more prog than Iced Earth, Iron Maiden, or early Metallica. Orphaned Land and Opeth inhabit entirely different scenes--progressive, but not in the distinct progressive metal subgenre.

Also, Opeth can be incredibly tedious.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Except that they are.

 

[Woolie Wool]

What is what? I mentioned several different things in that post--what are you addressing?

 

[waif]

Queensryche are not really progressive metal.

Dream Theater aren't progressive. I'd call them operatic heavy metal with maybe some influences from stuff like Genesis, but definitely not real prog metal.

also, some of Maiden's mid 80s stuff as well as their newer stuff is distinctly progressive tinged, and steve harris has always been a major prog fan.

 

[Woolie Wool]

Steve Harris is a major prog fan. He does not write prog metal. Even A Matter of Life and Death isn't nearly as prog as "Metropolis Pt. 1" or "In the Presence of Enemies". If a couple of vaguely progressive songs per album make you prog metal, then Night of the Stormrider, Stained Class, Master of Puppets, and In the Nightside Eclipse are prog metal and the name of the genre is cheapened into meaninglessness.

If Dream Theater aren't prog enough to be prog metal, then Maiden and Queensryche sure aren't, and Awaken the Guardian is pretty much all you have left. Hell, DT are really more prog than Rush (and yes, Rush, a standard bearer of '70s prog rock, have written a lot of really poppy songs in their history, they're certainly no Spiral Architect). This sort of "higher brow than thou" thinking tends to create a vicious cycle that ends in some sort of rock and roll lovechild of Frank Zappa and Anton Webern. Ultimately you have to define a baseline standard of "prog" and stick to it.

 

[Vacant_Planets]

Almost? Dream Theater are nowhere close to Maiden. Back in the late 70's Iron Maiden discovered a secret that was unfortunately not passed on to the next generation of prog bands: the secret of writing interesting, memorable songs that kick fucking ass and become absolute classics worshipped by legions of fans for their ungodly awesomeness.


Sounds a lot like Dream Theater, to be honest...




It doesn't matter if you invented the sound, if tons of bands surpass you you have become generic; there's no point in listening to you because other people do it better.

I think he is discribing Dream Theater rather than Pagan's Mind. Pagan's Mind is alright, though I think Spiral Architect is great being the complexity in their music is still memorible.

 

[Mort Divine]

I think the whole problem with prog metal is that no one has surpassed Dream Theater

I'm sorry, but Pain of Salvation surpass Dream Theater on EVERY level that matters. Plus there are lesser known bands like Winds, Frantic Bleep, Mechanical Poet, Koyaanisqatsy, Scholomance, etc. that all destroy Dream Theater.

 

[Woolie Wool]

No, I would say Pain of Salvation are not that great at all, and I cannot fucking stand rapping, especially white European rapping, or beatboxing. Just...NO. I didn't like it on Train of Thought and I don't like it on The Perfect Element Pt. 1

And nothing DT has ever released, not even that shitty Metallica cover bootleg, approaches the Godawfulness of that shit heap Scarsick. "Honor Thy Father" is annoying. "Cribcaged" makes me want to re-enact a Cannibal Corpse song with the people who performed it.

And what the hell is with your sig image?

 

[Mort Divine]

Oh fuck off. There was NO rapping on any of their first four albums, two of which are largely considered to be their best.

Pain of Salvation knows how to properly write a song, the know how to actually use complexity instead of blatant technicality, they're a very nuanced band instead of blunt and straight forward to a flaw like DT is, and they've got the best vocalist in metal.

Also don't ask me about my signature when you've got one championing Dream Theater, nowadays Therion, Ihshan's solo work, AND Borknagar.

EDIT: In your post, mindless metal fan reaction to music that is different and outside of their tastes.

Scarsick is far better than even Dream Theater's best albums.

EDIT2: Okay, there was a bit of it in Used - whatever.

EDIT3: Who gives a fuck if there is rapping in it? God I fucking hate you right now. Asshole. You have such bad musical taste.

 

[Woolie Wool]

Uh, there's rapping on the first fucking song of The Perfect Element Pt. 1

As for songwriting, Be makes Tales from Topographic Oceans look lean and low on bullshit by comparison.

 

[Mort Divine]

BE is the most well composed metal album this side of TRITSIO and Obscura.

Also read my edits you cock.

 

[S<issors]

I love Dream Theater, but while they're virtuosos on their instruments, song writing is a definite weak point for them. Still fun IMO, but yeah, especially on the later albums their tunes tend towards "NOTES! MORE NOTES!" Which is cool in its own way, I guess.

Pain of Salvation, on the other hand, are just really really awful. I don't know why you like their vocalist, Mort, I find him even more annoying than LaBrie I thought PoS was a joke the first time I heard them.

 

[skeptik]

Mort, shut your fucking mouth already. Every time somebody mentioned Pain Of Salvation you have to go into an insane lesbian rage when in reality nobody gives a fuck but you. It's getting really god damn annoying to the point that it's inspired me to let you know during my course of not really posting a whole lot. You always get your toe socks in a bunch over this fucking gay band and nobody else fucking cares. You're the one with gay tastes, now accept that and keep it in the closet.

 

[Mort Divine]

I've not even remotely reacted to someone like that in a long time you soggy pancake. I know that people don't like the band around here, but WW is just so inexcusably dumb that I can't let him get away with such things.