Controversial opinions on metal

[Cythraul]

Hey look guys, Darkbliss is being obnoxious!! Who would've thought?

I've never had a problem with you before until you started recently with this bullshit argument about Dimmu Borgir in this thread. Why did you decide to start behaving like an inconsolable toddler all of a sudden?

This isn't all that new. He's made claims/arguments like this before. It's just that now he's decided to sustain the discussion for several pages. Actually, a while back he wondered how I could both like Elend and dislike Summoning, as though I were somehow being inconsistent.

 

[DarkBliss]

You are STILL not providing examples of people who actually do this.

I'm not and won't. It's not nice to point fingers.

Cyth, you're the most consistent person on this board.

I've got the same probelm with Elend as I have with most dissonant tech metal;their music is confusing, overblown and incoherent, and doesn't use drums, which is a personal pet peeve anyway.

Summoning's compositions, however are rigidly structured, and intuitively flowing,thanks to the ambient drumming undescoring them. The pacing of their music is too slow for me, anyway,but I still like Stronghold quite a bit.

 

[no country for old wainds]

lol

edit: @ elend/summoning

 

[Mentok]

Come on people you argue about personal opinions which you know neither of you can win. There is no purpose to keep doing it.

Dodens is arguing that it is in fact opinion though and not some guideline that everyone must follow. But, I do agree that it is pointless.

 

[DarkBliss]

lol

edit: @ elend/summoning

Yes, Tom, you were saying?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I'm not and won't. It's not nice to point fingers.

Considering how much of a disturbance you've already caused here, I somehow doubt 'pointing fingers' is going to affect people's opinions of you any more than purposefully not backing up your argument would.

 

[no country for old wainds]

dimmu suck you faggot

 

[TheInsane]

I think there are interesting points in the discussion though. Namely the discussion on if the release date matters and I think it does in a way. Had Slayer released "reign in blood" today would it be as important or as celebrated as it has become? Of course not.

If a band does a really good album but basically re-did what Burzum did in the early 90's would that band be celebrated as much as if they released their stuff before Burzum? Of course not.

That is why some discussion can rise when new fans get into a genre and hear the newer band first and maybe likes it more than the original stuff. We all fall for this. The first song we hear with a band often holds a special place in our hearts (if we like it that is) just like the band that came first doing something new and revolutionary most often will be considered the better band compared to those that came after unless those second generation bands themselves added something that was enough to make them stand out from the predecessors.

Everything has to be judged (actually is always judged) on the basis of what came before and in some ways, after time has passed, what came after. Sometimes the newer stuff is actually better but they wont ever take the place as the favorites of the most amount of people unless they actually do something special and in one way or another original with it. If it has been done before it will never have the same impact as if it was the first of its kind. And then it doesnt matter usually if the second generation is better than the first.

 

[Mentok]

The year in which an album was released is relevant only in so far as it reflects the originality and novelty of what the band was doing at the time the album was written/recorded/released.

Well DUH, if it was released today it wouldn't be "some sort of unique entity". A groundbreaking album in 1981 would not be groundbreaking in 2010. Because it was original THEN when it was recorded the first time, not decades later.

So, basically what he said

 

[redscot]

I was never a fan of Meshuggah, but I haven't heard most of their stuff. ObZen was okay, and Combustion was a pretty sweet track.

I found old Meshuggah way easier to get into than new Meshuggah. Not sure why everyone raves about ObZen...

 

[DarkBliss]

dimmu suck you faggot

but Necromantia ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuullllllllllllleeeeeeeee!
Yehaaa. Sorry, woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

 

[no country for old wainds]

got to make a distinction here between judging the band and actual enjoyment of the band. if a band rips off HLTO perfectly, as in they literally just release HLTO under their own name, the album's obviously gonna be just as enjoyable as HLTO, but the credit in both cases goes to burzum.

 

[DarkBliss]

Considering how much of a disturbance you've already caused here, I somehow doubt 'pointing fingers' is going to affect people's opinions of you any more than purposefully not backing up your argument would.

Yea, I guess.
Matt, there are far more overwrought acts being praised in the underground than Dimmu Borrgir.

 

[DarkBliss]

got to make a distinction here between judging the band and actual enjoyment of the band. if a band rips off HLTO perfectly, as in they literally just release HLTO under their own name, the album's obviously gonna be just as enjoyable as HLTO, but the credit in both cases goes to burzum.

Thanks for articulating a sensible opinion.

 

[no country for old wainds]

dimmu aren't overwrought, just a band with conventional melodies/song structures/etc with a gimmick to hide how conventional they are. people talk about the symphonic elements being 'superficial' but what they mean is that they provide novelty value to band that would otherwise have no value.

and yea there probably are some more praised bands in the underground that are just as wank in the same way. it's just a shame none of the bands you provide in these comparisons of yours ever actually fit into that category.

 

[TheInsane]

got to make a distinction here between judging the band and actual enjoyment of the band. if a band rips off HLTO perfectly, as in they literally just release HLTO under their own name, the album's obviously gonna be just as enjoyable as HLTO, but the credit in both cases goes to burzum.

Well this is obviously a case that is impossible and wont happen but even if it was the exact same album people would still praise Burzum for it and not the copycats. And if people would choose Im sure almost everyone would buy the Burzum version since that after all is the original. Im also sure people would rate the Burzum one higher because it would be the first version of the album.

It is not always about the sound but also about the mind knowing who recorded it, when and why.

 

[DarkBliss]

Tom, but Summoning are also very conventional in their songwriting;each of their albums is structured exactly the same way-starting with an intro, and then going into fairytale synth territory with plodding rhythms.
And let's have as look now at the release date of Stronghold-hey, look, it's 2001, the same year Dimmu released PEM. What a shocking coincidence.But I thought all post-2000 BM is devoid of soul, depth or whatever other romantic antic you wanna stick in there. Guess not so. Hmmm...And yea, Summoning have definitely progressed with each album: treading the same spot since 1995 with every release being a slight variation on another with different production.

Cythraul doesn't like Summoning because he claims that they're cheesy(considering that all metal is to an extent that's hardly an explanation, but whatever, let's not nitpick here). Well, at least he's consistent in his views: disliking both Dimmu and Summoning. I applaud him.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

You really are hopeless aren't you? We just stated several times that the time period isn't relevant as far as musical value goes.

Saying that Dimmu Borgir and Summoning are similar based on both bands using "fairytale keyboards" or whatever is a pretty superficial way to compare the bands don't you think?

 

[skeptik]

"For fans of Necromantia, Summoning, and Candlemass!"

 

[TheInsane]

You really are hopeless aren't you? We just stated several times that the time period isn't relevant as far as musical value goes.

But it kind of does matter. Image matters as well. Iron Maiden would never be loved by millions if they looked like 50'year old farmers when they released their first album. Neither would "the number of the beast" reach the popularity it did if it was released today. I for one do think one has to take into account all aspects. Id like it to be a matter of just the music but thats clearly not how the world works. We take into account all impressions. That is why the ever so important aspect of timing is essential in reaching musical success.