Controversial opinions on metal

[Phylactery]

I don't have to do anything in regards to posting here.

Weren't you always calling Rusty Water (or whatever he was called) out for making claims and not backing them up? This comment seems a bit hypocritical and unnecessary.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I did as he asked. I was just saying that I don't actually have to do what he wants me to do just because he says so. So no, I don't think that's hypocritical behavior.

 

[Phylactery]

If Nattens Madrigal

Ulver are pretty much hipsters so this wasn't a good example. Anyway, I'm a fan of Nattens Madrigal and I haven't seen it mentioned much here. It's a good album, however, I feel that the second half is noticeably weaker than the first. There's also the issue with the production where it's so trebly that it can be a tough listen. Some people write it off as a irrelevant since it was released in 1997 and does little more than try to copy what Darkthrone had done years prior. I think the song writing is mostly strong enough that this isn't an issue - there are some great melodies to be found on the album.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Cardiac Arrest opens with guitar harmonies, does the rat-tatatat hi-hat thing McBrain does all the time (in the chorus), and the vocal melodies in the verses are much more elaborate than anything I can think of from early Manowar. Eric Adams on the first album still had a great voice, but he was generally more relaxed with his melodies then followed with periods of held notes for the obligatory epic bits. The riffing isn't very Maiden-esque, but neither is it Manowar-style. Licensed to Kill sounds even less like Manowar; that opening "Oooon the raaaAAAdiiiOOO" is much more typical of Dickinson's singing style, and while the song in the whole is faster and more aggressive than what is typical of either band, those power chords in bursts of two (duh-duh DUN-DUN, duh-duh DUN-DUN) reminds me more of Aces High's chorus than anything Manowar has done (even though the chord progressions are different and all). I'll give it to you that the rougher screams in the song (e.g. around 1:35) sound more like Eric Adams, but that could just be Conklin's voice.

Venom did alter egos before either band btw.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Dickinson sings in the higher part of his register much more often than Conklin or Adams do. We'll have to disagree on this one because your post does nothing to change my opinion.

The main point that I was trying to make is that Jag Panzer has most of the same "gayness" as Manowar, which is usually with regards to vocals, subject material and band image. I still have little doubt that Manowar influenced their music and you haven't really done anything to disprove it. People don't usually say the guitar parts in Manowar are what makes them too gay to listen to.

The songs that I gave as examples definitely don't sound like Iron Maiden songs but they have plenty in common with Manowar in terms of content.

In regards to Venom having alter egos, that's irrelevant since I'm not claiming that Manowar invented alter egos in metal. Unlike Venom, Manowar presents themselves similar to Jag Panzer. Both bands make songs that make them out to be larger than life metal masters. It's much more than a passing similarity.

Manowar are the Kings of Metal and Jag Panzer are the Tyrants. Both bands make songs about who they are and how they're more metal than everyone else.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

People only call Manowar gay because they have band photos oiled up in tights, hairy chests sparkling under the stage lights, and have "Man" in their name.

What is in common with those songs and Manowar in content? Specifically name riffs, musical techniques, compositional ideas, etc. You're ignoring my specific points because you know you're wrong and a very dishonest individual. Manowar doesn't even have twin guitars, Jag Panzer and Maiden both do. That's a huge part of the Maiden and Jag Panzer sound.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Oh and here's an interview where they Mark Briody mentions the influence of the NWOBHM on the Jag Panzer sound:

http://www.maximummetal.com/interviews/intresults.asp?ID=jagpanzer_group&idBand=284

M.B.: Well, when I was a kid I didn’t like the American bands on the radio. [For example] I didn’t like Van Halen, although I did like Eddie’s guitar playing. I more liked the NWOBHM bands – I liked Iron Maiden, Angelwitch, Witchfynde, even early Def Leppard. So I liked all the British bands as well as bands like Scorpions…..

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Oh and here's an interview where they Mark Briody mentions the influence of the NWOBHM on the Jag Panzer sound

How does Mark Briody saying he doesn't like Van Halen and likes Iron Maiden show that Harry Conklin isn't influenced by Manowar? This is an example of you projecting.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I thought of a good controversial opinion.

People who hate on Manowar and praise Jag Panzer's early music are posers. Jag Panzer has all of the musical traits that people who think Manowar is gay complain about and the influence of Manowar on their music is obvious.

The Tyrant demos from before Manowar released Battle Hymns in 1982 sound much less like Manowar than anything Jag Panzer made from 1983 onwards. Even Harry Conklin's singing is much less similar to Eric Adams on those recordings.

It's not as much that they sound exactly like Manowar as it is that they are definitely influenced by them and have all of the elements that people say make Manowar gay. I especially don't get how Eric Adams sounds super gay by some people's standards but Harry Conklin can get a free pass even though he is so similar and clearly influenced by Adams.

They also have a whole bunch of catchy songs on Tyrants and Ample Destruction that are lyrically similar to the heavily derided Manowar anthems.

Weird. Here's my specifically saying that Conklin reminds me of Manowar and that I believe that he was influenced by Eric Adams since he sounds different after the Tyrant demo era and I find his singing and lyrics to be similar.

You will note that I blatantly say that the band does not sound specifically like Manowar by any means. Please tell me why you're accusing me of saying the opposite. Note that these are my first and second posts on the subject.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Burden of proof is always on the one making the claim. Prove that Manowar was an influence, let alone a significant one, on Jag Panzer. I've demonstrated that they were influenced by the NWOBHM (Maiden) and that at least one member did not listen to much American music.

If you're just talking about vocals and image now, fine, but that's not what you initially said. Your early posts read:

Jag Panzer has all of the musical traits that people who think Manowar is gay complain about and the influence of Manowar on their music is obvious.

...

The Tyrant demos from before Manowar released Battle Hymns in 1982 sound much less like Manowar than anything Jag Panzer made from 1983 onwards. Even Harry Conklin's singing is much less similar to Eric Adams on those recordings.

Emphasis on "even", proving that was not your initial main argument.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I clarified my position a while ago and you have repeatedly attempted to say that I'm saying they are extremely similar musically which literally never happened.

I'd love to know why you're obsessed with proving that Iron Maiden influenced them anyway since I never said otherwise. You manufactured that argument on your own.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

"Jag Panzer has all of the musical traits that people who think Manowar is gay complain about and the influence of Manowar on their music is obvious."

Nice try Omni.

 

[Krow]

Every time I see this thread has new posts, I click it.... then fairly quickly click the back button.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

You are projecting again. I explained what I perceive as the musical traits that people who hate Manowar take issue with and how Jag Panzer is similar to them in an abundantly clear fashion.

Hhhmm. Let me think, 'Cold As A Blade' is just like a Conan type of thing. I enjoyed what other bands, HAMMERFALL and MANOWAR have done to the Conan concept and bringing that age of when the sword was all powerful into view and basically that song is just talking about somebody that has a thirst for the blade and doesn't really know what wielding the blade is all about and he thinks that the blade has the power but actually it's not the blade that has the power it's the hand behind it and by the end of the song he comes to realize it's not about how sharp, heavy or how powerful the blade is but it's about the mindset of the man and the hand that wields it. I thought that came out to be pretty cool and it was also in the Iron Shadows type of vein earlier on in our past and I thought that would be a great tie in with the AMPLE DESTRUCTION days and what's happening now.

This is an excerpt from an interview from when they released Mechanized Warfare where he explains what the songs mean to him since he is the one who writes the lyrics. He names Manowar as an inspiration and says that this song is a tie-in to the Ample Destruction days thematically.

Please tell me again that Harry Conklin isn't influenced by Manowar.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

No you didn't explain that, you backtracked and said you were talking about singing styles and clothing. Try again.

That excerpt is good, except that it clearly refers to their newer stuff which is slower, more explicitly "epic", and easier to justify as Manowar influenced.



That song sounds like Manowar. Ample Destruction does not.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Actually, the quote is about where he derives lyrical inspiration and not what the music sounds like. It's highly unlikely that he wasn't aware of Manowar in the 1980s.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Keep dodging.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Keep inventing things to argue about.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

People who hate on Manowar and praise Jag Panzer's early music are posers. Jag Panzer has all of the musical traits that people who think Manowar is gay complain about and the influence of Manowar on their music is obvious.

dot

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Not at all incompatible with my later statements, friend. I said ages ago that we would continue to disagree on this and you got even more aggressive the less interested I became in continuing the discussion.

You project a lot during arguments and it's boring to have to defend myself from opinions that you invent on your own.