Do most of you guys even record drums?
- Thread starter Nick M
- Start date
I agree. It sucks.
I even went industrial. If I am going to have fake drums, I am going all out to make sure people know it is electronica.
I do everything else the old fashioned way, I have iso room and mic'd up cabs etc.
The main point is, no one cares about our shitty little bands so fake/real/triggers no one really gives a damn.
I even went industrial. If I am going to have fake drums, I am going all out to make sure people know it is electronica.
I do everything else the old fashioned way, I have iso room and mic'd up cabs etc.
The main point is, no one cares about our shitty little bands so fake/real/triggers no one really gives a damn.
I want to hear great songs, of which the production helps create vibe and brings forth an emotional response in the listener. I could care less what tools are used and how it is achieved.
RemoWilliams
¯\(°_o)/¯ How meet Devil?
- Nov 13, 2005
- 879
- 1
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+1 I doubt if there was an album somebody liked prior to knowing something was programmed, that they would change their opinion of it. I've liked albums just the same after finding out something was programmed, either it be drums or orchestral elements. If I'm worried about if something is real or not, then I'm obviously not paying attention to the emotional impact of the song.
I mean, unless you listen to music solely for production aspects and nothing more.
egan.
daylightdies.com
There is this hilarious irony right now though where b/c S2 sounds good it sounds more "slick" than a mediocre real recording which really encourages people to go that way. The problem of course is that S2 always sounds like S2 so it's obscenely generic. Honestly though I only really hate programmed drums when they show up on label releases that I'm positive have five figure budgets.
The "song is king" and "means to an end" arguments are true but it's beside the point b/c we are discussing production. A great song is great as a 64k MP3 too but few of us would argue that the fidelity is irrelevant.
cobhc
Amiga Enthusiast
I don't get why it's so "unfortunate" that most of the people in this forum don't have access to real drums. Why does it matter? If the end result sounds good, then I couldn't care less how it got there, and neither should any of you guys. I'm pretty sure some of the hardcore programmers on here could knock up a mix, neglect to tell anyone it was programmed drums and you wouldn't notice, so why all the bagging on people who don't have the chance to record real drums?
Makes me want to start gravitating away from this place again when I see this kinda thing. Not looking for sympathy, I just dislike the way this forum is becoming split and there's this kinda club for people who have access to a studio and a nice room to record drums in, and a room where they can crank amps up and the like, and it's basically "I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of ya".
I remember a few years back when Black Neon Bob posted his mixes and everyone was swinging off his nuts, when he doing exactly the kinda stuff you guys are bagging on, and 99% of people in here were praising the hell out of him, and there was already a LOT of people doing that back then.
I just don't get the elitism lately towards people who are less fortunate...
If any of you wanna flame me for this, go ahead, I honestly couldn't give a shit anymore.
Makes me want to start gravitating away from this place again when I see this kinda thing. Not looking for sympathy, I just dislike the way this forum is becoming split and there's this kinda club for people who have access to a studio and a nice room to record drums in, and a room where they can crank amps up and the like, and it's basically "I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of ya".
I remember a few years back when Black Neon Bob posted his mixes and everyone was swinging off his nuts, when he doing exactly the kinda stuff you guys are bagging on, and 99% of people in here were praising the hell out of him, and there was already a LOT of people doing that back then.
I just don't get the elitism lately towards people who are less fortunate...
If any of you wanna flame me for this, go ahead, I honestly couldn't give a shit anymore.
xFkx
gain induction
I love real drums, i love recording real drums with a good drummer and a good set. Has been happening a lot lately which makes me happy
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I think this pretty much says it.
I have to admit I find it somewhat odd that people would champion the natural (and relatively highly impractical) approach in a genre where everything is so often manically gridded and replaced. It's like you're starting off natural just to make it artificial, instead of starting artificial and working your way back marginally until it's acceptable.
I almost always record real drums, but that's because I like the slight swing, I like the different approach it forces me to use each time, and I dig the minor tonal benefits (smoother overheads, less artificially dynamic drums). I wouldn't begrudge someone, however, if the practical aspects of programming drums on an album were just too favorable in place of recording real drums.
The irony is that with programming, your starting point is closer to where the drums will be in the end. They require less tweaking, less overall skill to execute & not to mention boatloads less financial capital, and I can absolutely see why that would be too attractive to pass up for some people.
Ultimately it just comes down to serving the music, and facilitating that reaction with the listener. Everything else is self indulgence.
The problems with most drummers are these.....
1) "How are you?" - Your just starting out with a great new album project that requires really good drumming - plot complication: The one or two great drummers you know are in two or three different bands, and don't share your enthusiasm. Great atracts great, so, because your not in an established band, you have to hire the "just OK" drummer down the street.
2) Are drummers musicians? - Most drummers are good at playing their instrument, but they arn't neccesarly skilled as musicians or song writers. The great thing about drummers like Lars Urich, Joey Jordison, and Neil Pert is, they have a creative input into the crafting of the song. You can "hum a few bars', and they already have the drum parts fot it.
3) Costs - as an above poster said, to get a pro drummer, well tuned drums, the right mics, hours of studio time, is beyoud the reach of most songwriters.
4) Pride - a lot of drummers are insulted that you want to incorperate programed drums with their playing, but it's like a gutar player saying he can tune his guitar without a tuner. If the tecnology is out there to tighten up the drums - USE IT
Here is the Mondo formula for the drum tracks to your song
A) Write your song using a simple DAW with guitar, bass, maybe vocals, and simple drum grooves using midi (change up the grooves for verse, chorus, bridge, whatever). Make a click track for the song and mix it down to listenable stereo audio tracks and burn to CD. This is (what's called in the movie industry) your storyboard
B) Give the CD to the drummer in your band, or hired gun (preferably a jazz taught drummer), and let him drive around town listening to it for a couple of days.
C) Have that drummer come in and lay down the drum parts on a midi kit or triggered skins kit. Record his playing with as many takes as neccesary. You might have to pay him a couple of bucks.
D) Now write you drum part using his playing (edit and quatize some parts, leave some alone), use your midi keyboard to add what is missing, and use Slam Tracks ($10) for other groove and fill ideas.
E) Huminize - there are a few posts in this forum on how to make your midi drums sound like they are being played by a real drummer (using velocites and not over quantizing)
E) Now import your samlped drums (superior, BFD, Slate), and get your
drum track as "radio ready" as possible
F) Now conform your guitar, bass, synth, vocal parts to this new drum track
G) (Optional) have your drummer play over the perfected programed drum tracks with a couple of good overheads (or whatever micing you prefere) and mix real with sampled to taste
H) Repeat procedere for the other 7 songs on your CD, mix and master (yourself or at a pro shop) for final product.
I) Tour, sell your CD, sell your T-Shirts, get layed by groupies, get promised you have a 30 minute set and now told you have 15 minutes, make videos, etc..
J) Get famous, get picked up by a record company, and do the next CD and drum tracks on THEIR budget
Good luck,
Mondo
1) "How are you?" - Your just starting out with a great new album project that requires really good drumming - plot complication: The one or two great drummers you know are in two or three different bands, and don't share your enthusiasm. Great atracts great, so, because your not in an established band, you have to hire the "just OK" drummer down the street.
2) Are drummers musicians? - Most drummers are good at playing their instrument, but they arn't neccesarly skilled as musicians or song writers. The great thing about drummers like Lars Urich, Joey Jordison, and Neil Pert is, they have a creative input into the crafting of the song. You can "hum a few bars', and they already have the drum parts fot it.
3) Costs - as an above poster said, to get a pro drummer, well tuned drums, the right mics, hours of studio time, is beyoud the reach of most songwriters.
4) Pride - a lot of drummers are insulted that you want to incorperate programed drums with their playing, but it's like a gutar player saying he can tune his guitar without a tuner. If the tecnology is out there to tighten up the drums - USE IT
Here is the Mondo formula for the drum tracks to your song
A) Write your song using a simple DAW with guitar, bass, maybe vocals, and simple drum grooves using midi (change up the grooves for verse, chorus, bridge, whatever). Make a click track for the song and mix it down to listenable stereo audio tracks and burn to CD. This is (what's called in the movie industry) your storyboard
B) Give the CD to the drummer in your band, or hired gun (preferably a jazz taught drummer), and let him drive around town listening to it for a couple of days.
C) Have that drummer come in and lay down the drum parts on a midi kit or triggered skins kit. Record his playing with as many takes as neccesary. You might have to pay him a couple of bucks.
D) Now write you drum part using his playing (edit and quatize some parts, leave some alone), use your midi keyboard to add what is missing, and use Slam Tracks ($10) for other groove and fill ideas.
E) Huminize - there are a few posts in this forum on how to make your midi drums sound like they are being played by a real drummer (using velocites and not over quantizing)
E) Now import your samlped drums (superior, BFD, Slate), and get your
drum track as "radio ready" as possible
F) Now conform your guitar, bass, synth, vocal parts to this new drum track
G) (Optional) have your drummer play over the perfected programed drum tracks with a couple of good overheads (or whatever micing you prefere) and mix real with sampled to taste
H) Repeat procedere for the other 7 songs on your CD, mix and master (yourself or at a pro shop) for final product.
I) Tour, sell your CD, sell your T-Shirts, get layed by groupies, get promised you have a 30 minute set and now told you have 15 minutes, make videos, etc..
J) Get famous, get picked up by a record company, and do the next CD and drum tracks on THEIR budget
Good luck,
Mondo
Also, I think that it's ironic that a song like "Tainted Love" by Soft Cell has made millions in record sales and in a few movies, and the drums on that song are just a drum machine with the same kick, snare, and high-hat pattern throughout
And how about those intricate Beastie Boys drum tracks?
And how about those intricate Beastie Boys drum tracks?
guitarguru777
Member
I have a warehouse I record my drums in.
I record real drums for 90% of the projects I do then sample replace / enhance what I record. I dont have $50,000 worth of mics, just a set of Audix Fusion mics and a D6, a Beta 52, Sterling Audio overheads, a 57 and an i5.
I have gotten usable tom sounds on 2 of the 5 productions productions I have done this year so far. I am still learning how to mic drums properly in order to get good tones.
I try to do as little programming as possible.
I am in the middle of a production that I used a Yamaha SubKick on that I borrowed from a friend. I think I will be using one more often as I LOVE what its doing in conjunction with the D6.
I record real drums for 90% of the projects I do then sample replace / enhance what I record. I dont have $50,000 worth of mics, just a set of Audix Fusion mics and a D6, a Beta 52, Sterling Audio overheads, a 57 and an i5.
I have gotten usable tom sounds on 2 of the 5 productions productions I have done this year so far. I am still learning how to mic drums properly in order to get good tones.
I try to do as little programming as possible.
I am in the middle of a production that I used a Yamaha SubKick on that I borrowed from a friend. I think I will be using one more often as I LOVE what its doing in conjunction with the D6.
koalamo
Member
I agree with ermz the amount of pocketing and processing sample replacing done in modern metal is ridiculous and yet people still make such a huge deal about programmed drums when in all actuality most of the people tracking drums on here are probably just keeping the over heads anyway and maybe a room mic or something. I do believe that great sounding raw drums beat great sounding programmed drums all the time but with most of the shitty local bands I get atleast it's just sooo much easier to program and so much less time consuming.
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
It's not elitism towards the "less fortunate," it's people who quite obviously do not have a studio or proper equipment to record bands with advertising themselves as running "studios" and recording "bands."
If you work out of your bed room with amp sims and programmed drums, it's hardly fair to say that you record bands and run a studio.
Ionei
Member
Programming with a drummer takes no time at all, as long as you can communicate well and understand drums.
I can smash out a song in not time at all.
If I'm programming my own stuff it takes about as long as it takes for me to think of a beat then 30 seconds to put it down.
It really is not time consuming at all.
Where as if I wanted to record everything setup alone would take twice as long as the programming.
Loren Littlejohn
Lover of all boobage.
I am just sort of noticing that it seems so many of you use Superior Drummer or slate drums. Lots of programmers on here. I see many offer recording studios services. If you have a recording studio, why on earth would you program drums? (if you do not have a studio I get it) I can understand triggering these sounds to enhance what you recorded, but it seems quite a few just program anyway? Is it because your rooms are lacking for drum tracking? Is it that your drum tracking abilities are lacking? Is it the bands trying to play parts that they can't play.
Really, What gives?
I keep hearing these super fake programmed drums(including cymbals!) and it all sounds the same.uke:
It's a lot of factors (yes I can and do record drums but here is why they tend to get replaced):
1. The drum set is shit and the drummer is a cheap bastard stuck in his cheap bastard ways.
2. The drummer sucks, REALLY BAD.
3. My room isn't the best, I can make do with it if the kit is rockin and the drummer is even more rockin but the stars have to align for that to happen and I'm convinced it only happens once every 100 years or so.
Those factors are decreased down to ability only if they decide to track where I freelance from time to time, but it doesn't happen often as the facilities are more per hour (as they should be, studio kits, expensive mic pres and mics are higher overhead).
I could control a lot more factors if I owned a studio kit, but it has not made the high importance list yet... it probably should though with some of the shit I have seen (like the 1996 model pearl export with stock heads still on it from a recording I did in 2008
).
Loren Littlejohn
Lover of all boobage.
Ah see this is not what I do. Throwing out the drummers arrangement of how the drums are to be played on a song is a rather cunt thing to do (unless the drummer is cool with it, most of the time he is not).
When I program drums, it's the drummers arrangement right down to how fills are played etc... (so yeah we record the arrangements first and program off of what he played).
Actually, I've had good responses to it because of how much better it sounds to them vs going with the junky kit they brought in to record. As long as you give them say in how the drums are arranged on the record things tend to go well.
In other words... it's what they want and I'm ok with it. I did a record with no samples other than the kick this year and they were happy as fuck with it. I've also done stuff that was completely 100% samples. Either way it's not my stance to tell a band what should sound good to them (with the exception of things that obviously sound horrible like line 6 spiders
).
Felix Neumann
Member
I record drums. It´s kind of passion linked with challenge. When it has to be fast, cause some clients havn´t enogh money, I programm drums. I´m very excited, cause I´ll buy a new drumset next week Still don´t know, which one though.
Still don´t know, which one though.I only record real drums. One of the best feelings is knowing that there's something you've done wrong and you can improve on it, or when you have an idea for tuning the kit differently, or placing different mics in different places. I doubt its as much fun thinking of different ways to tweak superior. Recording real drums has infinite possibilities (especially if you don't work just on metal) which is probably the biggest attraction for me.
I don't really get the "less fortunate" thing either - if you want to record real drums: save some money and buy some mics, that's what I did. If you don't have space to record - hire a cheap rehearsal space. If you're happy working with programmed drums then that's cool too.
I don't really get the "less fortunate" thing either - if you want to record real drums: save some money and buy some mics, that's what I did. If you don't have space to record - hire a cheap rehearsal space. If you're happy working with programmed drums then that's cool too.
egan.
daylightdies.com
Right, I don't believe anyone is saying that it's wrong to do the best you can with what you have. I don't even think anyone thinks that there aren't reasons (as Loren describes) to bail out to programming even when you have the tracking option.
What most of us our saying is that tracking an actual drummer sounds better and more unique even if you grid them and use a sample library.
I'll add that perhaps there are programmed tracks that are indiscernable from tracked drums but obviously that's not the issue-- It's the thousands of productions being kicked out with obvious programming and a kit I can name by brand. Even with that (as I've said) it only really gets under my skin when it's a band with a label budget. I'm sorry but if you have the money you need to track the drums or at the very least hire one of these supposed programming wizards that everyone keeps talking about to make it more real (less generic).
Im glad this got brought up as well.
Ive never had to program drums on a recording and i dont think i ever would unless it was elctronic music or something like that.
One of the most important parts of recording is the fact that you are capturing a performance, anyone can sound decent with good programmed drums and guitar tracks. remove those programmed drums and try to replace them with real drums, thats where the challenge is.
I also dont get where this disillusionment about the cost to record drums comes in. you dont necessarily need to spend a fortune to get a good room or even on gear. You can buy a cheap 8 input interface, a few cheap mic's and record in your bedroom or living room! Id rather hear the recording where people spent time getting decent sounds on budget gear, instead of taking the easier route of just programming already processed drum samples.
Ive never had to program drums on a recording and i dont think i ever would unless it was elctronic music or something like that.
One of the most important parts of recording is the fact that you are capturing a performance, anyone can sound decent with good programmed drums and guitar tracks. remove those programmed drums and try to replace them with real drums, thats where the challenge is.
I also dont get where this disillusionment about the cost to record drums comes in. you dont necessarily need to spend a fortune to get a good room or even on gear. You can buy a cheap 8 input interface, a few cheap mic's and record in your bedroom or living room! Id rather hear the recording where people spent time getting decent sounds on budget gear, instead of taking the easier route of just programming already processed drum samples.
