Do most of you guys even record drums?

[angryoldsoundguy]

What most of us our saying is that tracking an actual drummer sounds better and more unique even if you grid them and use a sample library.

I think the issue is much more narrow than that. Not only the ideal circumstances when tracking (drummer, drum kit, room, gear) but also the engineers involved (recording, mixing and perhaps mastering). However, these comments are reserved only to metal and perhaps rock music, since sample replacement has been such a mainstay in these genres. I bet you could get an assortment of cardboard boxes, trash cans, stick them in a closet, record them on a cell phone or cassette recorder and have a viben' indie sound.

I'll add that perhaps there are programmed tracks that are indiscernable from tracked drums but obviously that's not the issue-- It's the thousands of productions being kicked out with obvious programming and a kit I can name by brand.

I have been wondering, in the past, if people complained a lot about using an Alesis drum module in recording instead of real drums. Or to take it a step further, did people ever start complaining about using a 5150 with a boogie cab, since that has become more or less a standard. Unlike many other genres of music, I find that metal production tends to be centered around achieving a certain archetype. Now that the technology is cheap and accessible, combined with social media, this homogenization of productions using the same tools is just much more apparent.

I also wonder, if some where there is an Ultimate Hip Hop forum, where people are angry at the state of auto-tuning, to which some reply it is necessary (talent, time constraints due to budget), others reply how they enjoy recording a real singer and others yet who are on a quest to find a way to make it sound like T-Pain, but with some other plug-in or device.

Even with that (as I've said) it only really get's under my skin when it's a band with a label budget. I'm sorry but if you have the money you need to track the drums or at the very least hire one of these supposed programming wizards that everyone keeps talking about to make it more real (less generic).

This is a great point and I agree with you completely. If I hear a record of a band I like that is a SD2/Slate/AxeFX/POD production, I email them and ask why they chose to do it that way. Some of them don't have a clue, other times they want to sound like band XYZ who did the same thing.

 

[jimwilbourne]

So. I must say. Many of you are missing the fact that the average personal can't tell the difference.

Yes, as artists an musicians ourselves we should be pushing the envelope.
I have the ability to record drums.
I have the gear.
I think it's fun.
But time and time again I need to program because of situations that many people, including myself have pointed out.

It's wrong to say that those on this forum are a collection of laptop "producers"
Because lets face it: many of us are trying to make a career out of this. But labels don't toss us projects. So what are we left to work with?
Typical highschool band #346 with a poor drummer or poor equipment. And they only have $800 to record their EP. And you haven't had a project with a budget to work on in the past 3 months. And you really need that $800 to help pay some bills and finally get that new preamp or set of plugins you've been needing.
And you've been working hard in promoting your studio. And you dont need a bunch of crappy drum tracks on this project again because you want to advance and get better projects.

And then let's look at the guy who programs who doesn't have any drum mics. It's pretty reasonable to believe that not everyone who doesn't own drum mics are just lazy engineers. This stuff costs money. Building a studio takes time and money. And there are those of us who work hard but the economy is sucking hard for us right now. And you're working part time at some crappy restaurant. And most of your budget goes to pay the bills and rent. You hardly have the means to be building a studio when you aren't getting high budget projects.

Is it really that hard to see why people are programming more and more?
Hell, is it even that hard to see why there is so much amp sim usage?

Edit: I think it's also interesting to point out that I have had musicians request a less than human drum approach. Just as a style preference.
In addition, I have a studio drum set that I can hybrid. It solved many of my equipment issues. However, not all of us can afford that. I actually tend to do a weird mix of programming and tracking.

 

[Harley Barley]

i have mics, enough mics to record a whole band playing live. but kids these days don't give a crap to try and get a good sound the want to come in sit down and just BAM play they dont understand that it takes time to position microphones and tune drums. also a lot of them can barely play to a metronome so when the songs come out and there drums dont sound like every other local band that programmed there drums they are liKE WTF YOU SUCK AS A PRODUCER.

those are my thoughts at least.

 

[drew_drummer]

I record our drummer on a TD-9 for internal band demos and the like. I use the same setup for my solo stuff. But for the band album recordings, I will always use a real kit, and then augment as necessary later on.

 

[~BURNY~]

No real drums, no fun.

 

[Max Morton]

Oh come on. Sometimes we need to melodyne the poor intonation on guitar solos. Why should we insist on recording the weak drummer's poor performance, then editing the shit out of it. There's no more truth in it - it will be the same lies, as programming the stuff for such a band. And you always can refuse.
I personally love tracking live drums, I love tuning them, placing mics, listening to different sets of cymbals, re-tuning the snare for certain songs, sampling the kits and then blending them, I love experimenting with the cymbal spot mics. But what we all know perfectly, that it can be fun only with the GOOD DRUMMER! I don't think it will be fun to get your snare top condenser mic smashed by a stick. And your perfect tuning won't help those tomes to jump out of the mix if the dude can't hit them right. I think we all had recording sessions with the drummers who were hitting the bloody tom mics each several takes. Who could not hit a cymbal right and had their own crappy cheap torn sets of cymbals. Will you lend them your studio set? No way. Will the live overhead mics glue the mix in this case? Sure they won't. And in most cases those drummers show you their GTP with double kicks 16-th in 230, lots of blastbeats, and with time signatures changing evety 8 bars. And in most cases they say that they want a live kit sound, no samples.
PROGRAM THE MOTHERFUCKERS! Or just refuse to work, beforehand. That's why I always visit the band's rehearsal before agreeing to collaborate. And I have nothing against programming the drums if the band wants it and if they're nice guys on a budget (sure I spend less time programming the stuff. I also save on the new skins and the studio time for tracking).

But recording a good drummer is one the greatest pleasures for me. And I'm happy to work with most of my clients, even if they are imperfect, but if they "know their shit" and if they do not try to play what they just can't play.

P.S. : sometimes I'm tracking a guitarist through the ampsim and then reamp it with the real amps, after all the editing and take selection is done. saves me a lot of time and helps me to concentrate on the sound.

 

[C_F_H_13]

I think this pretty much says it.

I have to admit I find it somewhat odd that people would champion the natural (and relatively highly impractical) approach in a genre where everything is so often manically gridded and replaced. It's like you're starting off natural just to make it artificial, instead of starting artificial and working your way back marginally until it's acceptable.

I almost always record real drums, but that's because I like the slight swing, I like the different approach it forces me to use each time, and I dig the minor tonal benefits (smoother overheads, less artificially dynamic drums). I wouldn't begrudge someone, however, if the practical aspects of programming drums on an album were just too favorable in place of recording real drums.

The irony is that with programming, your starting point is closer to where the drums will be in the end. They require less tweaking, less overall skill to execute & not to mention boatloads less financial capital, and I can absolutely see why that would be too attractive to pass up for some people.

Ultimately it just comes down to serving the music, and facilitating that reaction with the listener. Everything else is self indulgence.

I would agree with everything you said.

It's not elitism towards the "less fortunate," it's people who quite obviously do not have a studio or proper equipment to record bands with advertising themselves as running "studios" and recording "bands."

If you work out of your bed room with amp sims and programmed drums, it's hardly fair to say that you record bands and run a studio.

This is also a really important point. Although I would argue in my case it's actually beneficial, as a decent percentage of my business is "mixing" (which means redoing) records that were tracked by a "producer at his house", and the band was really unhappy. Happens all the time.

However I strongly agree that there are too many people saying they have studios when really they have FL studio or some shit and literally just got it.


There is nothing like recording real drums, it's the most frustrating and rewarding thing to record in my opinion. Frustrating because so much is out of your control; the drummer and his talent, the kit and it's tuning etc etc etc. It's also a god damn blast to hear a drummer sound bigger then life through the monitors.

If you havn't done it. Do it now. Even going to watch a really talented engineer can do wonders for your chops. Go pay someone who is a well known engineer and watch them record someone. I guarantee you'll learn more in that one day then you will in a year on this forum (not a dig to this place at all).

I watched Frank fillipetti record Terry Bozzio years ago and it was absolutely insane how much I learned in that one single day.

 

[professorlamp]

I could control a lot more factors if I owned a studio kit, but it has not made the high importance list yet... it probably should though with some of the shit I have seen (like the 1996 model pearl export with stock heads still on it from a recording I did in 2008 ).

WHAT!? :zombie:

 

[Nick M]

It's not elitism towards the "less fortunate," it's people who quite obviously do not have a studio or proper equipment to record bands with advertising themselves as running "studios" and recording "bands."

If you work out of your bed room with amp sims and programmed drums, it's hardly fair to say that you record bands and run a studio.

Exactly. Maybe you guys should instead advertise being able to record half a band in not quite a studio.

I just recently discovered this forum and was not aware that so many people programmed drums. I, for the hell of it, just programed a short bit to see how real it can be. There is no way programmed drums can sound like real played drums. The hi-hat and ride can't come close, and the cymbals are terrible for this. now the individual drums themselves sound alright. These are pretty close to what you would expect to hear with samples blended in or replacing the original drums.

I was just wondering as this is a new approach to me. I personally think it is seriously lacking, but that is just MY opinion. Lets not kid ourselves though, if you are without a band, this is a great way to go to get your songs out. On the other hand, if you are RECORDING a band... well you might want to figure out how because programming never sounds better(to me) UNLESS you are not in position to actually record drums(no mics,room,equipment,money)

 

[dontletmedrown]

Recording drums is my favorite part of recording, so usually it's real drums here unless I'm working on a project that has no drummer. I know beat detective essentionally leaves you with "programmed" drums but I still prefer real ones over 100% programmed anyday unless a synthetic sound is more approprite for the songs.

 

[Nick M]

Ermz, You're right. It does come down to the music and what best pushes the songs to be the best they can be. Real drums ADD the realism and excitement to further this idea. This is my biggest gripe with programmed vomit.

 

[TheDriller]

I, for the hell of it, just programed a short bit to see how real it can be. There is no way programmed drums can sound like real played drums.

I can't do brain surgery, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

[JeffTD]

Yeah, I'll be the first to say that you can get programmed drums sounding 95 if not 100% convincing, and that yes, it is faster than recording/editing a real drummer. Additionally, yes, I do get hired to program and edit drums on a regular basis so I'm totally contributing to the whole "not hearing a drummer very often" situation, but on any real production worth a damn (serious DIY release, label release, etc), the issues with not having the money, equipment, or skill are really not relevant, IMO. Anyone that serious about there shit, or that are signed to a decent label, should have pro or semi-pro equipment and be good at their instruments. And before anyone comes out and cites drummers that suck ass in huge bands - believe me; I KNOW. I edit them, all the time, and it always turns out better than programming from the get-go.


Every single time I've gone with amp sims or programmed drums on a production I've done, I've regretted the decision. Whether or not it was within my control in the first place to use real amps or real drums is another issue, but the statement still stands.

 

[paladin shredder]

My only thing I have to say to people who just program drums: You are not preparing yourself for when you may actually get to record a GOOD drummer.

Making shitty drummers sound half-way decent on a recording DOES prepare you for when you actually get to record a good drummer.

 

[greyskull]

yes...
With this

 

[Wohma]

Guys, what is your opinion on recording electronic drums? Or possibly recording an e-kit with real cymbals miked up? We are about to record something longer (EP or even a full-length) and I'd like to get the best sound I can, unfortunately our drum kit is not the best one and (what's much worse) there's just one recording studio in our town (except for local guys recording for other bands, but they are jsut terrible) and I am far from impressed by their references and equipment. The only studios that can record and possibly mix well are far away and fuckin' expensive; and even getting signed by a label would not help us money-wise. The situation in our country as regards musical industry is so bad that even the better metal labels offer just some promotion and cheaper t-shirt and all the crap, but no funds to record.
Are there any cymbal samples that will sound decent? Or is recording e-kit with the real cymbals way to go?

 

[ArroldW]

I absoFREAKINlutely love real raw drums and real guitar tones. I have decent sounding room that I have to treat a tad bit more but drummers ALWAYS come in with cracked cymbals and don't have a lot of "control" while they play. Sampling helps turn 3-4 days of drum tracking into 2-3. And guitarist don't spend enough money on good gear. <<<< [THE ONLY REASON I USE POD + SLATE]

 

[ArroldW]

And for some reason everyone wants that digital sound. Like the recent band I did. They wanted the damn JS sound and I have to pay rent... sooooooo yeah. haha

I guess I'm just over shitty musicians.

 

[Joel4662]

The problem, to me, is that alot of drummers suck :\
Timing, creativity, and dynamics-wise
I hate local metal shows because of this.
And I kind of enjoy programming because I can usually change some of the fills and stuff to add my own little creativity into it
They usually love it
Then they pay me. Profit

 

[Morgan C]

Guys, what is your opinion on recording electronic drums? Or possibly recording an e-kit with real cymbals miked up? We are about to record something longer (EP or even a full-length) and I'd like to get the best sound I can, unfortunately our drum kit is not the best one and (what's much worse) there's just one recording studio in our town (except for local guys recording for other bands, but they are jsut terrible) and I am far from impressed by their references and equipment. The only studios that can record and possibly mix well are far away and fuckin' expensive; and even getting signed by a label would not help us money-wise. The situation in our country as regards musical industry is so bad that even the better metal labels offer just some promotion and cheaper t-shirt and all the crap, but no funds to record.
Are there any cymbal samples that will sound decent? Or is recording e-kit with the real cymbals way to go?

Tbh, I think programming the drums sounds more realistic than playing an e-kits through the same software pack (ie Sup2.0). Dunno why, and I'll happily be proven wrong.