Dream Theater - Octavarium

[Rose Immortal]

Rose: Unfortunately more than what Dream Theater did, but let's not kid ourselves, everyone can blatantly hear it.

I actually have not heard the album yet, not to mention I don't know the bands people are saying DT ripped.

But really, what does it take to cross the line? I mean, when I listen to an Ayreon album (and I LOVE Ayreon), I can hear influences from other bands, things that make me think of specific songs. But I've never heard anybody chew them out the way people are yelling at DT. So where does "tribute" stop and "rip-off" begin?

Again, I can't personally take sides in this, but I think it's a legitimate question.

 

[Ayreon Guardian X]

He doesn't listen to his fans? are you KIDDING ME?!? hehehe you may accuse MP of many things... like... overplaying, bad attitude or whatever... but not listening to the fans is one thing you really cant accuse him of.

Because he listened to the fans when he:

1- Recorded the A Change Of Seasons EP
2- Made a Metropolis part II
3- Fought the record label over FII
4- Made 6DoIT a double CD.
5- Recorded a "metal album"
6- Cut down the wanking on Octavarium
7- Released the WDADU LA show on DVD.
8- Made LaB's visual quality top notch and cut down the cheese stuff he did on LSFAM DVD.
9- Has tried several times to get KM plays Space Dye Vest with DT.
10- Fired Derek Sherinian.
And about... a zillion other things...

In fact... I think that DT's lets their fans influence them too much.

And what the hell does a prog metal band have to be like? record the same album over and over and over like Shadow Gallery and Symphony X?

This is what is interesting about prog fans nowdays, change is shrugged off, and bands that dare to experiment are blown off (see Gigantour forums DEP vs SyX)... slowly but surely the genre is becoming more regressive. I mean, when bands like Adagio, Pagan's Mind, Vanden Plas, et al are the ones supposed to be taking the genre foward? damn...

I agree with especially your comment about Adagio...many of their songs sound like direct SymX ripoffs...especially the one song on Underworld, where he chants the same Latin (I think?) verse that is chanted in SymX's Prelude for V: The New Mythology Suite...sure in parts, Adagio is heavier and rougher around the edges than SymX, but they sound like exactly that: A rougher SymX...not exactly revolutionary!

Your comment about Shadow Gallery, however, I can't agree with...if you'd have heard Room V, you would not have said that they stagnated...it's not just a standard progmetal early Dream Theater-ripoff stuff anymore...Room V is as good or better than their classic Tyranny....also, I can KIND-OF see where you were going with the SymX reference [they recorded "The Odyssey" to be new "Divine Wings", with the same number of tracks (at least on the Limited Editions), the same song structure with track 8 being the epic, and track 4 being an "Accolade", and the first three tracks being similar to the first 3 tracks on "Divine"...], however, SymX aren't THAT predictable, and I doubt that they will ever release another album that has songs in that order again, or that sound like that again....

 

[SymphonyOfDreams]

ah, there we go taking cheap shots again. First of all, DT really can't be called prog metal then can they, if they "evolved" as you say. Because if they were prog metal, like the other bands you listed wouldn't they be rehashing themselves like the other bands you listed are? (at least you seem to think)

And also, don't lump all the people who listen to this music as being people who shrug off change. Whether it be little things (like the fact that I felt John West's first album with Royal Hunt blew away most of the previous stuff), or the fact that each Symphony X album has been getting steadily darker and heavier, or that Fear Factory doesn't have Dino Cazares anymore and they still sound pretty darn good, or that Tony MacAlpine isn't in Planet X anymore, take your pick. And yes you are right about one thing, the genre is becoming more regressive, just wait until, what was it, June 6th?

Read again, I just asked if repeating the same album over and over again made you metal or not because those seem to be the standards of many people in these boards...

Personally prog metal = prog + metal influences... wich can be a wide spectrum of bands that go from System Of A Down to Meshuggah

And the funny thing is that neither Royal Hunt, nor Symphony X nor Planet X's sound has changed considerably, as say... DT I&W to DT SFAM... because neither Royal Hunt, nor Symphony X nor Planet X push themselves to try something different from what people expect of them. So it's the same stuff over and over... boring. And when a genre called "progressive" does everything but progress into "new" things... it becomes "regressive".

 

[Jeremy Krull]

I actually have not heard the album yet, not to mention I don't know the bands people are saying DT ripped.

But really, what does it take to cross the line? I mean, when I listen to an Ayreon album (and I LOVE Ayreon), I can hear influences from other bands, things that make me think of specific songs. But I've never heard anybody chew them out the way people are yelling at DT. So where does "tribute" stop and "rip-off" begin?

Again, I can't personally take sides in this, but I think it's a legitimate question.

In a technical sense it would probably take a complete musical or lyrical plagiarism, unless of course one of the other bands took note and felt the need to file a legal action anyway.

 

[ABQShredHead]

I am a monster DT fan. Though I respect Jordan Rudess as a fantastic musician, I think the departure of Kevin Moore took much more than just the keyboard player from this band. The songwriting has slipped and has yet to get back to Moore's level (though SFAM came very close). I miss the old DT, sure, but that's why I have those CDs - so I can listen to them whenever I want. I appreciate where they've gone with their songs (albeit with reduced songwriting qualities) and I will always buy their new CDs on the day of release. From the time I got to talk with them in podunk little Lubbock, TX, after their show in a warehouse for Images & Words, I've had the utmost respect for these guys, regardless and irrespective of what I have read on this forum.

 

[Jeremy Krull]

Read again, I just asked if repeating the same album over and over again made you metal or not because those seem to be the standards of many people in these boards...

Personally prog metal = prog + metal influences... wich can be a wide spectrum of bands that go from System Of A Down to Meshuggah

And the funny thing is that neither Royal Hunt, nor Symphony X nor Planet X's sound has changed considerably, as say... DT I&W to DT SFAM... because neither Royal Hunt, nor Symphony X nor Planet X push themselves to try something different from what people expect of them. So it's the same stuff over and over... boring. And when a genre called "progressive" does everything but progress into "new" things... it becomes "regressive".

First of all, RH, Symphony X, and Planet X, are true to themselves, and they're not going to change unless they want to. They don't push themselves? it's completely within their power I'm sure. Symphony X's songwriting has DEFINITELY evolved from then until now, you can hear that, at least I'd like to think you can. Royal Hunt well, yea, they are Royal Hunt, can't really make a case for that, just member changes and sound changes. Planet X, whatever I'm not going to argue with you anymore, there's no use showing pictures to the blind. And when you've listened to all the material from all those bands, and every other band anyone has mentioned in this thread, then you can accuse musicians, who have done more than I, and especially you, have done in a lifetime, of 'not pushing themselves'

 

[SymphonyOfDreams]

First of all, RH, Symphony X, and Planet X, are true to themselves, and they're not going to change unless they want to.

Thank you! now we are going somewhere... they "stay tr00 to themselves", so they dont experiment because they already have a sound they have to stay tr00 to.

Symphony X's songwriting has DEFINITELY evolved from then until now, you can hear that, at least I'd like to think you can.

Evolved to what? the same structures, the same chuggah chuggah, and the same wankerism? The Odissey sounds from the same date as The Divine Wings Of Tragedy, it's like Stratovarius/Yngwie Malmsteen all over.

Royal Hunt well, yea, they are Royal Hunt, can't really make a case for that, just member changes and sound changes.

And the relevance of member changes is? as TDWOT and TIO showed... it is not relevant at all.

And when you've listened to all the material from all those bands, and every other band anyone has mentioned in this thread, then you can accuse musicians, who have done more than I, and especially you, have done in a lifetime, of 'not pushing themselves'

I have listened to all the material of all of those bands... I'm not one to make blind arguments about stuff I dont know. And to make things clear, I have all the respect in the world to the musicians in those bands, that I dont like the music or not agree with the direction of their music is another thing, but I do respect them, as I know I will never achieve their level of technique and understanding of music.

However even prodigies can fall prey of not pushing themselves to do something different. Take Yngwie Malmsteen for example.

 

[wayne the goblin/robot]

I Though I respect Jordan Rudess as a fantastic musician, I think the departure of Kevin Moore took much more than just the keyboard player from this band.

JORDAN RUDESS IS GOD

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

I agree with especially your comment about Adagio...many of their songs sound like direct SymX ripoffs...especially the one song on Underworld, where he chants the same Latin (I think?) verse that is chanted in SymX's Prelude for V: The New Mythology Suite...

I see what you're saying, but just to point out, the "Prelude" from 'V' wasn't written by Symphony X. I believe it's from Mozart's 'Requiem.' I should probably check that though. They mention it on their site, they just arranged it for the band.

 

[BastrdDrmr]

I personally think that This Dying Soul is the worst song in ToT

agreed... that song is a miserable follow up to Glass Prison.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Whoah!

I saw what you said about the alternate mix stuff on 'Scenes From A Memory,' so I downloaded the alternate mix album (Yeah....I have albums I'd rather spend money on than something from Ytse Jam). The mix is incredible! Incredible! I'm just starting and listening to a few points.....it also seems like more of a concept album because of the different way they do Through My Words and Fatal Tragedy which makes them seem less like two separate songs. They should have definitely used this mix on the album.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I love the mix actually..

I love how they boosted the resonance (spelling?) through some of the keyboard solos and when they distort labries voice, reminds me of some of the good parts of this dying soul.

Myung is audible from what i can hear.. not sure what silent song is talking about. lol, maybe he's listening to EoP. Or maybe not.

and the solos in panic attack... the song is called panic attack ffs.. what did you expect?

i was referring to Myung being dropped out on previous albums, not Octo. i have EoP so no, that is not the case. on Octo, the mix is just far too flat for my ears.

about Panic Attack, the title, lyrics, and just about everything about those solos... i guess you have to somehow associate with it to like it, and i certainly wish it was just left off.

 

[RequiemX]

Because he listened to the fans when he [Portnoy]:

....

May I add: He's the one who got Symphony X on Gigantour.

 

[NGC 3370]

I am a huge fan of DT and I have liked all the releases up till now pretty much equally.
I have not downloaded the cd because I am sure I will like this cd as well from what I have read on this forum so far. Thanks for all your opinions guys. This is gonna be hell waiting for the new release and for it to arrive in my country by post a week or more later after it is sent.

 

[HeroBoy]

Speaking to all the "reviews" posted here, and the practice of reviewing in general, either before or shortly after the release of a product in any particular media: am I alone in needing at least a couple weeks with something to really form an opinion?

I can understand having first impressions, of course, but as a professional musician I realized long ago that some things can take weeks, months, or even longer to digest. Even a simple rock album. Until you've listened to it several times, left it, and come back to it, how can you form such a strong opinion that you're praising it or ripping it to shreds?

Discussing Octavarium now is all well and good, but some people might benefit from stepping back and considering things more carefully.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Well....I've had it for about a week now, and listened to it enough to know all the songs very well. And it has been absorbed........my initial opinion was that it was complete and total crap.

But even with the "absorbtion" factor, it doesn't take you much to see that this is going downhill for Drema Theater.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Speaking to all the "reviews" posted here, and the practice of reviewing in general, either before or shortly after the release of a product in any particular media: am I alone in needing at least a couple weeks with something to really form an opinion?

Most of the time it takes me three full listens to review; that's typically how long it takes me to actually remember a sizeable amount of an album. Sometimes it can take longer--occasionally less if something's truly horrific or stunning. But usually I don't feel very good at reviewing something after the first time. And there has been the occasional instance where I hated or just didn't really care about something on first listen that now I love--Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here and Opeth's Blackwater Park being key examples...both I now recognize the greatness of, even though it took awhile. (The latter being because it was one of my very, very first metal albums EVER.)

 

[Metropolis Part 2]

Most of the time it takes me three full listens to review; that's typically how long it takes me to actually remember a sizeable amount of an album. Sometimes it can take longer--occasionally less if something's truly horrific or stunning. But usually I don't feel very good at reviewing something after the first time. And there has been the occasional instance where I hated or just didn't really care about something on first listen that now I love--Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here and Opeth's Blackwater Park being key examples...both I now recognize the greatness of, even though it took awhile. (The latter being because it was one of my very, very first metal albums EVER.)

Same, it actually took me since 2001 when I bought V to appreciate it, now I just love it.

 

[Rose Immortal]

I think I remember you having your V revelation...

DT's Awake snuck up on me a bit, too. Though I think part of it had to do with the fact that I was in kind of a depressive funk the first time I ever heard it. Just the fact that I thought "This is good stuff" at the time was impressive. Only after a few more listens did I realize I had a masterpiece on my hands.

 

[wayne the goblin/robot]

hey metropolis, how come you hav'nt said anything about octavarium yet?