Dull guitars rock

[drew_drummer]

I've been doing something similar to this for ages. But rather than low-passing, I generally do a low-shelf at about -6db, and 9khz ... because that seems to match my equipment pretty well. But I sometimes put some smallish peaks higher up to bring out a little bit of fizz - I like it that way.

As always.. use your ears, and fuck what words on a forum say (for the most part anyway).

 

[ahjteam]

After the usual '10 to 12kHz' low-pass most of us do on guitars, I always found myself clamping down on everything above 7kHz with the C4. I wondered why, but I was too afraid to drag the low-pass down, thinking I'd eat up too many of the high frequencies.

Having finally got the balls to try it for real on a mix, I can just say that it works. It not only is a contributing factor to why you guys like his tones so much, it also brings guitar sounds closer to the crushing variety done by guys like Staub. It even made the guitars closer to the ballpark of good ITB metal sounds, like Gojira's 'TWoAF' which from what I gather is a board favorite..

I actually noticed the same thing, but I thought I was an oddbird, because when I was trying out my tones when I was micing a cab, the lowpass (12dB/oct) usually ended usually always to 6-9khz, if it was any higher, it was so fizzy I just didn't enjoy it. Also the Genelecs are pretty unforgiving on the +10khz region.

That's the same reason why I usually highpass my guitar tones like almost 1-3 octaves higher than most of the guys here (usually like near 120-200hz, 12dB/oct), because I tried to use my ears and around there the excess low end dissappears from the subwoofers, and that way there is still plenty of room for bass.

For this one deathmetal mix I even highpassed the grunt type lead vocals at fucking 350hz, and it still sounded decent in my opinion: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/angelkiller_ahj_v03_after.mp3

 

[Ermz]

With vox I find it works better if you just high pass at like 80 to 150 and just take all the excess lows out with the low shelf. I normally use the SSL E-Channel so this stuff is easy to do on one screen. For screamers and growlers, you're right, there's normally tons of junk in the low mids, but that's why the lord blessed us with the C4. Let me salvage the clarity of the lead vox on the Eye of the Enemy record, and from what I heard most people are really vibing with the vox sound now.

 

[Trevoire520]

Good thread. How sharp are you guys setting your LPF's when pulling them down to the 7k area?

 

[Ermz]

So far 6dB/oct has worked best for me, but I might move to 12 if necessary. Thinking it depends on the source a great deal.

 

[nwright]

It's funny to read this thread now. I remember Harry's thread and a lot of people were disagreeing.

I kinda fall/fell into the category of "well, these pros do it this way" and never really questioned it.

In early mixes of my most recent project, I low passed the guitars t 7-8K and I thought it sounded great to an extent. I've never noticed a difference in low passing at 10-12K vs. not doing it at all, but I always did.

In the end I upped the low pass to around 9-10K, but did some boosting at 1.5-4K with notches for cutting fizz. That seems to be the magic area for me, and the hardest to get right. I've been analyzing the latest BDM and JFAC discs (digging the latest stuff from Mark and co. at Audiohammer) and found that area to be the one I need to pay attention to most. Putting a low pass a bit lower than the usual 12K and then tailoring the 1.5-4K range IMO is key to getting an in your face tone without too much fizz (although I do like some), at least for me and what I want to achieve. I think too many dudes focus on the lows and low mids to get "punch", but its the high mids that IMO give you the aggression.

Sometimes I feel like I do better to take the general tips and ideas in forums and try those out, but past that I kinda like finding my own way. But I'm pretty confident no one on here listens to my mixes and cares to ask questions, haha. *noob*

 

[drew_drummer]

Fuck it. Just scoop everything at 400hz.

 

[Mago]

Personally I prefer a guitartone a tad too dark more than welcome to fizz city,which burns my ears.

I usually don't look what the hz say when I set the lowpass...if it sounds good I take a look at it in the end and finito.

 

[Pedro Teixeira]

Fuck it. Just scoop everything at 400hz.

This. haha

 

[ttrentt]

great thread, very ear opening.

 

[slashvanyoung]

There's no fundamental answer to this IMO as (as always) it's also depending on the source material, genre, general vibe of the mix etc.

 

[BrettT]

Great thread. I definitely find that lowpassing at the 7K area helps a great deal with amp sims, as 7K+ is where sims and impulses really start to sound unnatural. It also gives the guitars more headroom so that they can come up in the mix a bit and have more punch.

 

[Charles J]

i've been doing this for the last year to 18 months.

12k was NEVER, EVER low enough for me! It seemed to do almost nothing except kill the very, very high weird stuff.

I prefer darker, more 1.5kHz focused GTR tones... =D

because it brings the br00tz in oh so many good ways

 

[jval]

I'm not sure if I would cut that low in a metal mix, but of course it depends on the source tone. For rock though, dark guitars can definitely be the way to go. The latest nickelback is a good example... mix is massive but the guitars are super dark. leaves tons of room for a big airy vocal and for the drums to cut.

 

[Charles J]

i like most rock mixes wayyy more than i like most metal mixes, so... i guess i kind of starting mixing more in with that in mind as of late, as well as old, olddd stuff from the 50's!!

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Out of curiosity Ermz, how low did you LP the guitars Lasse reamped for you for the EotE EP? I wouldn't have guessed they were cut below 10k honestly - and FTR, my complaints with the recto fizz were at 6k, but while I don't deny it's existence, when I finally got the tracks i reamped for my EP seated in the full mix (with not cutting of any of the high frequencies besides an LPF like 10.5k), I learned to love it as a "sizzle", so there are definitely taste factors here as well!

 

[P-E]

^ This. I happen to like a bit of sizzle.

 

[Sickan]

In my guitar tone shaping project I cut at 12k, then in the mix I cut around 7k-9k with the SSL channel.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Another way to put it, now that I think of it, is a sort of shredding (as in shredding paper), snarling sound, that to me is the pinnacle of aggressive tone. Sure, maybe it leaves less room for cymbals and vocal nuances and what-have-you, but I love it

 

[Ermz]

Out of curiosity Ermz, how low did you LP the guitars Lasse reamped for you for the EotE EP? I wouldn't have guessed they were cut below 10k honestly - and FTR, my complaints with the recto fizz were at 6k, but while I don't deny it's existence, when I finally got the tracks i reamped for my EP seated in the full mix (with not cutting of any of the high frequencies besides an LPF like 10.5k), I learned to love it as a "sizzle", so there are definitely taste factors here as well!

I think those types of tendencies mostly come from musicians. With the EoTE album, the guitarists, who are dominant in that band, got me to really lower the bass grit, whereas I would've had it a fair bit higher. To them the guitars needed to be the center point of the mix, regardless of any benefit a more prominent bass mid would've given the record. Having been a guitarist for 9 years or what have you, I used to be privy to such things, and it was one of the things I really tried to shed when I got into production.

There is no 'me time' if it comes at the expense of the whole band. So the fizz has got to go.

The EoTE record guitars had a lot done to them, but as far as those very high freqs are concerned, I low-passed anywhere from 10 to 11kHz, then attenuated everything above 7kHz HEAVILY with the C4. Since I gave the guitars to Plec as a separate stem to the rest of the mix, he informed me that he subsequently also low-passed them at 9kHz . So all in all there was a huge amount of attenuation in that range. Though he also bumped the high mids, I imagine to compensate. This is where the perceived brightness is coming from, as Harry alluded. Unfortunately this also causes them to clash more with the vocal. So there you have it, one of the fine principles of mixing at work.