Extreme vocals in non-Extreme metal

[JayKeeley]

I'm just thinking aloud here.

I don't know what dictates the use of harsh vocals anymore. The origins of harsh vocals accompanied harsh music, e.g. traditional death metal or black metal.

Thing is, nowadays, you can get harsh vocals on top of almost any type of music. There doesn't seem to be a consistent pattern. So how do songwriters decide whether to use harsh vox?

I'll give an example with Neige:

Amesouers could have easily been done with clean vocals because the music is so 'non-metal', and yet the screaming black vocals actually work quite well. It's all about the contrast.

And then you have Peste Noire, which is based in black metal, and yet songs like "Dueil Angoisseus" seem to bug me somewhat Musically, it's excellent, but it's almost as if the harsh vocals detract from its greatness. That's one song demanding (at least some) clean vocals.

Also, look at Gwynbleidd. Harsh vocals on top of progressive metal. I wouldn't even call it progressive death metal since much of it is laid back....yet it works well.

So when musicians write non-extreme music, where clean vocals would be more fitting, how is the decision made to use harsh vocals? Can any musician here answer that? Perhaps even Sfarog? And if you're not a musician, what are your thoughts about extreme vocals on top of non-extreme music?

 

[Demilich]

Agalloch does a decent job too!

 

[Evil?]

^Was thinking the same thing.

From what I have read in interviews and other such things, a lot of the time the decision to use harsh vocals comes from the feeling the vocalist wants to express. I recently read an interview with In The Woods and the guy says that the emotions he felt in the song and in the lyrics couldn't be expressed without using the harsh vocals. To get the full power behind what he was saying he needed to scream.

 

[JayKeeley]

Cool, so perhaps it's more to do with the lyrics than the underlying music. I always just presumed that harsh vocals were used by default just because the music was equally harsh.

Most of the time I listen to music while I'm on the move so I never even have a chance to read the lyrics along with the music, so I settle for the 'ambience' of the screams.

 

[Evil?]

Cool, so perhaps it's more to do with the lyrics than the underlying music. I always just presumed that harsh vocals were used by default just because the music was equally harsh.

Most of the time I listen to music while I'm on the move so I never even have a chance to read the lyrics along with the music, so I settle for the 'ambience' of the screams.

This is something a lot of people I know cannot grasp. They get so uppity about not being able to understand the lyrics. I tell them to just think of the vocals as another instrument, but they still hate it.

 

[KILL TULLY]

And then you have Peste Noire, which is based in black metal, and yet songs like "Dueil Angoisseus" seem to bug me somewhat Musically, it's excellent, but it's almost as if the harsh vocals detract from its greatness. That's one song demanding (at least some) clean vocals.

Are you fuuucckkinnggg joking me man? Those vocals are fucking awsome.

 

[JayKeeley]

I'm saying that that particular song could have also worked well if clean vocals were used, so the question was more about how/when they decide to use harsh vocals.

And I'm not sure how the vocals on that song are any better/different than any other song on the album. Neige vocals are Neige vocals.

 

[Evil?]

I beleive Neige only does vocals on the tracks Retour De Flamme and Dueil Angoisseus.

 

[dorian gray]

I would assume people do harsh vocals in non-extreme music because A) they are getting stagnant and want to change things up a bit B) it's trendy (?) and C) they can't/no longer can actually sing. The only time I was impressed by this phenomenon was when I heard Devin Townsend cover "Natural Science". It was neat but got old after awhile. I don't know about his clean voice so I can't comment. Agalloch are an example of just not being able to sing at all. I don't have an example of trendiness but whatever. Interesting thread.

 

[Thanatopsis123]

That's one song demanding (at least some) clean vocals.

While I've wished some songs had harsh vocals, I've probably never wished something had clean vocals. I'm not entirely sure why that is. I do sometimes prefer harsh vocals because so many lyrics are shit and I'd rather not be able to understand wtf they're singing about.

(Good thread. I must spread rep around before giving it to JK again.)

 

[JayKeeley]

I would assume people do harsh vocals in non-extreme music because .... C) they can't/no longer can actually sing.

You know what Dorian, I think this has become a taboo subject. Some people believe that harsh vocals are more common these days (over any type of metal, whether extreme or otherwise) simply because *good* clean vocals are hard to come by. And so harsh vocals are somewhat of a 'cop out'.

Thing is, no one dare mention it, otherwise you get the 'death growl' police on yo ass.

I actually don't mind it. Perhaps I've got used to it. Either way, it's a dichotomy because in theory at least, it shouldn't work, but much of the time it does. So I'm keen to ask a songwriter how the decision is made to use harsh over clean.

 

[JayKeeley]

While I've wished some songs had harsh vocals, I've probably never wished something had clean vocals. I'm not entirely sure why that is. I do sometimes prefer harsh vocals because so many lyrics are shit and I'd rather not be able to understand wtf they're singing about.

Interesting. Let me ask you about Ulver's Bergtatt. If you think about it, Ulver could have gone the route of only using harsh vocals on that album. Instead they chose to mix it up with clean, almost 'gregorian' chants.

It worked fantastically, and is surely one of the greatest albums of all time. That said, would it still be as good if they only used harsh vocals throughout? Personally, I don't think so.

 

[Demilich]

Nah, no way would Bergtatt be what it is without those trademark monotonous, disaffected vocals that half of metal fans seem to hate

edit: personally I think they're pretty good!

 

[JayKeeley]

That's the first I've heard of anyone not liking the clean vocals on Bergtatt! (Is it because I avoid the GMD like the plague I wonder)

Also, I never even considered Haughm's vocals to be weak until others mentioned it. Same with Dave Mustaine. Hahaha.

 

[Sfarog]

I would say that the number one determining factor will be the musical preferences of the musicians involved. We do write the music with our own preferences in mind more so than being selective as to a "target" audience.

Most "progressive" metal that you probably had in mind utilizes vocal styles that would make me want to vomit in an instance. Having said that, Gwynbleidd's music, while utilizing certain characteristics of other "progressive" music, is not progressive for the pure sake of being so. I view our music as dark, melodic death/black metal first and foremost.

Another point as to the term "extreme" would be that what you consider extreme may be so elitary, that you exclude lots of other "extreme" acts by the standards of a larger group listeners.

Lastly, as to my own personal preferences, I find growls to be such emotive vocals stylistically, that once you fully embrace such style as a listener its hard to go back to less (naturally) distorted types of vocals. Vocals make or break the rest of the music. Vocals can take the most brutal music and turn it into poppy shit, and vice versa. Vocals can highlight the strengths of the music, add a new dimension and depth, or they can just kill whatever vibe the rest of the instruments were able to accomplish. Thats why stylistical preferences are ultimately the reason.

 

[Demilich]

Also, I never even considered Haughm's vocals to be weak until others mentioned it. Same with Dave Mustaine. Hahaha.

I don't know, I always liked Haughm's voice! He does wonders with what he has - that much is for sure!

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Haughm's voice always bugged the hell out of me. His growls are quite adequate, though nothing spectacular, but his singing and *shudders* whispering are both horrible.

 

[Thanatopsis123]

It worked fantastically, and is surely one of the greatest albums of all time. That said, would it still be as good if they only used harsh vocals throughout? Personally, I don't think so.

I think I'd have to keep that question in mind as I listened to the album to answer that. Sadly, I only have the first half of my album collection with me here in Japan in mp3 format.

 

[skyrefuge]

This seems like one of those things where there are a million different reasons, and each artist has a different one (or mix of several reasons) to explain why they do what they do.

I'm sure some think very carefully about when to go clean and when to go harsh, while some just say "eh, let's do a clean part here" while they're in the recording studio.

One thing that's interested me for a while is the overall level and distribution of melody in a song. Bands with all clean vocals tend to have the vast majority of the melody contained in the vocal lines. In contrast, Gothenburg bands can have the same overall level of melody as a pop band, but they shift the melody from the vocals over to the guitars.

Good melodies are the difficult part of songwriting (I assume), so I have a hypothesis that bands don't like to overdo it and "waste" them. If they've got a good vocal melody, no need to play a good guitar melody at the same time, and vice versa. So it would be interesting to analyze albums where both vocal styles are used, to see if the guitars in fact do get less melodic when the vocals go clean.

My favorite anomaly in this framework (which contrasts with, and thus highlights the standard case) is Sigh's "Gallows Gallery". Previously they'd always had melodic guitars and (mostly) harsh vocals. On GG, they went to melodic vocals, but unlike the standard case, they *didn't* lose the melodic guitars/keyboards. So you get all those melodies flying around at the same time, and it's almost like a head-exploding melodic overload. It makes me think that bands sometimes hold back on melodies because exploding the heads of their audience would really hurt the sales of their next album.

Oh, and for the "contrast" reason, my favorite example there is the end of Solefald's "When The Moon Is On The Wave", the last track on "The Linear Scaffold". Cornelius's throat is completely shredded, and it's just him screaming along to a quiet little piano melody. The lyrics are from Lord Byron, so there's no particular reason for the grimness, but it sounds pretty badass.

Neil

 

[Demilich]

It makes me think that bands sometimes hold back on melodies because exploding the heads of their audience would really hurt the sales of their next album.

awesome post btw