faith & religion

[rahvin]

hi fellow posters,

while we wait impatiently for new teasers of the forthcoming masterpiece, let's engage in a deep intellectual discussion about our beliefs and general feelings towards religion, one of the many threads that in time will set this board apart from every other band-related forum on the web: while elsewhere a bunch of retarded loonies rants endlessly about menial things, here a bunch of retarded loonies rants endlessly about the fate of the universe.
this is indeed a giant leap for human kind.

now on to some business.

- what are your views on faith in any god/supernatural entity? do you believe in such a thing? do you think it's a shared/needed feeling in any way? and what are the features of such a supernatural entity for you, if you think it/he/she/they do/es exist?

- what are your views on religion and social structures devoted to take care of the spiritual side of human life? just remember: there's a sound difference between one's own beliefs and the mundane organizations that thrive on them, so be clear when you refer to the ones or the other.

- band members are welcome to share their views, too.

@thanatos: you happy now?

rahvin. (arch-bishop of the chessboard)

 

[Thanatos]

Hehe, I'm happy the italian guy finally started the thread so I won't be held responsible and hated for the upcoming carnage...

what are your views on faith in any god/supernatural entity? do you believe in such a thing? do you think it's a shared/needed feeling in any way? and what are the features of such a supernatural entity for you, if you think it/he/she/they do/es exist?

First of all, I just want to make clear I'm agnostic, and I don't believe in a god or supernatural entity, mainly because I don't have any concrete proofs of his/her existence, but I don't have overwhelming proof of his non-existence either so I'm just sitting in the middle right now, I tend to think that there's no god whatsoever, though.
About faith, many people won't like my opinion but I think it's based in fear/weakness/pride, it looks like faithful people are like that because either they don't like the idea of mankind living on a tiny planet without a god protecting creating them , protecting them and deciding their fate, or they are too arrogant to think that humankind is "just" the latest chapter of some biochemical reaction that took place millions of years ago, I feel fine knowing nobody's watching over me when I go out for a walk because I have myself, and I don't have a problem with "lowly" apes as my ancestors instead of being the chosen race of god, therefore I don't have any faith in god.
And about that "need" of believing in a superior being, I've never had it.

what are your views on religion and social structures devoted to take care of the spiritual side of human life? just remember: there's a sound difference between one's own beliefs and the mundane organizations that thrive on them, so be clear when you refer to the ones or the other.

I might give an extended opinion about that in the future, I respect everybodies beliefs but imo "organized" religion is just crap.

So much to talk about this...

@thanatos: you happy now?

of course


Thanatos (unfaithful).

 

[the face of smeg]

while elsewhere a bunch of retarded loonies rants endlessly about menial things, here a bunch of retarded loonies rants endlessly about the fate of the universe.

well, my point of view is that the only difference between us & them, is that most people don't realise they're the same...

how depressing

 

[Soulscar]

But, aren't lowly apes something truly wonderful as well?

I mean, I am some kind of an agnostic, too, because I don't actually believe in god or whatsoever. But sometimes I just wonder whether there is something being the cause of all life on Earth, since most lifeforms are in their special way too perfect to be the product of sheer coincidence.
I find it hard to understand that sheer coincidence should have created such biochemical miracles like advanced lifeforms are - "advanced" including anything more complex than the most simple bacteria.

As for religious institutions, I believe that they make sense in some kind of way. I have been brought up, although not very strict, as a Roman Catholic, but I don't go to church anymore, nor do I pray or something like that.
But I still believe that most Christian values absolutely make sense as a code of social behaviour, ie as far as they are the basis of European ethical values.
Disclaimer: Some Christian, especially Catholic doctrines might have had a purpose in the past, but nowadays don't make any sense and I don't care about them (like eg not having sex before marriage).

 

[serenla]

I went to church on sunday, because i love the story of Jesus death. A lot of tears wetted my cheeks, ok I always cry. Perhaps there's no more than thisfor me : a kind of literary love for some parables. It's so imperfect the idea of ethics perfect for everybody, that I think we need to consider an other difference from the two Rahvin made. The faith, the feeling and ethics are something very different from the metaphysical concept of a god who gave us the life.

 

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by rahvin
hi fellow posters,

while we wait impatiently for new teasers of the forthcoming masterpiece, let's engage in a deep intellectual discussion about our beliefs and general feelings towards religion, one of the many threads that in time will set this board apart from every other band-related forum on the web: while elsewhere a bunch of retarded loonies rants endlessly about menial things, here a bunch of retarded loonies rants endlessly about the fate of the universe.
this is indeed a giant leap for human kind.

now on to some business.

- what are your views on faith in any god/supernatural entity? do you believe in such a thing? do you think it's a shared/needed feeling in any way? and what are the features of such a supernatural entity for you, if you think it/he/she/they do/es exist?

- what are your views on religion and social structures devoted to take care of the spiritual side of human life? just remember: there's a sound difference between one's own beliefs and the mundane organizations that thrive on them, so be clear when you refer to the ones or the other.

- band members are welcome to share their views, too.

@thanatos: you happy now?

rahvin. (arch-bishop of the chessboard)

Great a religion thread on the DT forum this should be far better.

- Religion is a human need. It comes from a lot of places, one of the biggest is the fear of death, also comes from fear of the unknown, sometimes political factors conspire with the former 2 to create the religious mind. In all cases it is my humble opinion that it is nothing but a mans creation, and i have never encountered solid evidence to convince me otherwise.

- Organized religions play a huge role on morals of society, shure every society might have leaders who make laws but what makes those leaders ( or in a fantasy democratic setting the people ) choose those set of rules? Common sense? hardly, most of the time it comes straight from the Moral principles that the Religion creates. This is why we see alot of unreasonable laws like anti-abortion laws, or gay marriage. Of course social preasure makes them a little more flexible but the religious tradicionalist values are still there and there in some countries there is still a long run before we see abortions as socially acceptable and sometimes legally acceptable. Moral is a religion founded vice that comes from people living togheter, 99% of the people doesnt conscious and subconsciously realize that just because a lot of people thinks so doesnt makes it right.

 

[Misanthrope]

I mean, I am some kind of an agnostic, too, because I don't actually believe in god or whatsoever. But sometimes I just wonder whether there is something being the cause of all life on Earth, since most lifeforms are in their special way too perfect to be the product of sheer coincidence.

Yes but you do not realize the time factor. After millions years of natual mechanisms and machinations to make the creatures better, coincidence becomes from fantasy odds to real and tangible odds that prove evolution. It didnt happened overnight, A million years is a long time in wich to evolve, several millions are completly factible.

 

[Misanthrope]

But you just did
Ha Ha!

*nelson style pointing*

 

[Soulscar]

OK, I have thought about the time factor. Perhaps it#s just the fact that I can't imagine such an enormous period of time ;-).

Nevertheless, I am still struck with admiration for the beauty and diversity of life.

 

[Misanthrope]

If you cannot picture that ammount of time i can see why you have a hard time picturing that ammount of random events wich lead to life. Its human to doubt that the universe is completly random but the more you look into it considering everything the more you realize is random, and that everything that the humans as the control freaks that we are have a hard time embracing this universal truth.

 

[Siren]

1) I hate religion threads, they ware me off a lot and that's why i hate them, i do think though that this is the best forum to hold such a conversation in an intelligent and respectful of other opinions level.

2) I don't know how to put this, but i've heard that scientific research has "discovered" that people with intense religious feelings also have some intense electric reactions in some part of their brain. So religious feelings could be related to some brain functions. The question is: do we believe (more or less) that there is a god because of those brain functions _or_ did god (or however you want to call it) make us in a way that those functions are there?

3) Universe, as we know it, has _rules_. It is not random. It is a long-shot imo that all those perfect rules were created by chance while ages passed, with so much harmony. Evolution is driven by rules also. So imo (again) somehow those rules were put there. The question is how/by whom.

Laterz,
Siren

 

[Misanthrope]

1) It would be very interest to find out of it is the same region of the brain people who is very fanatical about astrology or stuff like that has a lot of activity on that zone too. I think they would they just need that part of phantasy and mistery in their lives to feel confortable

2) Hehehe, there are no rules. What we humans percieve as rules are nothing but mere observations on how some events happen to be similar if they are under similar circunstances. The universe has an infinity number of posibilities therefore there is no such thing as a phisics law. It is also human to be arrogant about the universe and think we can figure out something infinite by knowing the most tiny part of it, i can believe that some "laws" of phisic are usually true within the confines of the human perception of the smallest piece of the whole we have acces to and that creates technology. However science has proved itself wrong giving birth to new concepts so many times that i found it hard to believe when a science guy says something is universal.

 

[Alfred]

@Misanthrope:

1) It could be, but so what? I tend not to frown upon astrology, cow-worshipping or any other form of belief. In most cases, they involve, anyway, a more reliable worshipped entity than self-worshipping does (at least in my case). What makes me a bit uncertain about Siren's theory is smt slightly different.

2) There could be rules. What you state as a matter-of-fact absence of rules is nothing but mere observations on how some events happen to be similar if they are under similar circunstances (brain-cathegorizing-related fact, in this case). Which gives us no hint whatsoever about the rest. And at least it proves there is at least one sub-part of the created (?) Being which has rules: cognitive-aimed sectors of the human brain. Which of course proves once more nothing else (even if a li'l funny "in image and likeness of God" springs to my mind, but I know this would be cheating ), but that wasn't the point, I think.

btw, why do you laugh at other ppl's ideas?

@Siren:

1) I share a grat part of yr opinions, and I dearly hope the board will hold on to its name

2) What makes me a bit doubtful is how easily this can be generalized. A lot of improved receptivity in different fields corresponds to high-charges in different zones of our brains, but asking if we are incredibily good at playing chess because a certain zone of our brain shows some intense reactions or the...er, the chess game... created our brain to have intense reactions in some specific zones is a bit less solid as a question, imo. But I wait for more dsetails about this fact before attempting a serious and detailed opinion, anyway.

3).... next time, now I'm too tired

Alfred (flexible (at) full)

 

[Villain]

I'm too damn tired (had almost 14 hours of school and work today) to write anything cohesive about the subject, but I'll throw some rocks if you don't mind.

Originally posted by Misanthrope

- Religion is a human need.

No. You are confusing religion with faith - these two are completely different things, although the former requires some form of the latter to function (whereas the latter does not "need" the former).

Faith is a human need. We need faith to feel our lives meaningful - were it faith for god(s) or faith for something else (humanity in my case) is irrelevant. We want to have faith in something, we want to believe in something that makes our miserable lives (and yes - everyone's life is miserable by some standards) perhaps a bit more enjoyable - be it god, love, hate, music, some ideology or whatever.

But then there is religion. Religion is something tries to combine the individual faiths and feelings of people into a one single organized concept, that could be used for some means (bettering the lives of the "faithful", furthering political goals, controlling people, etc). That's were all this trouble begins. In that sense, I count many -isms and ideologies as religions - some of them are very loosely knit together (a bit like the early polytheist religions of mankind, with various ways of interpretation), while some are nearly "orthodox" (ie, with very strict rules and formalities). I'll give some examples later, if you wish.

Looking at this from a purely theist/atheist view, we're all probably somewhere in the mid-ground - we have some faithlike values we hold dear and we have some connections to somewhere (at least to the church of Dark Tranquillity worshippers), making us religious in that sense.

Everything above is, of course, only IMHO.

Back to the original questions later...

-Villain

 

[Alfred]

Originally posted by Villain
we want to believe in something that makes our miserable lives (and yes - everyone's life is miserable by some standards) perhaps a bit more enjoyable

Couldn't maybe a change of standards be cheaper?

Alfred (joking to a certain extent)

 

[Siren]

@Alfred: haha i knew smt was wrong with that question
I don't have any more data to present you though, it's just smt i randomly heard on tv once and kept as information on my mind


Siren (showing logical improvement )

 

[Misanthrope]

Originally posted by Villain
I'm too damn tired (had almost 14 hours of school and work today) to write anything cohesive about the subject, but I'll throw some rocks if you don't mind.



No. You are confusing religion with faith - these two are completely different things, although the former requires some form of the latter to function (whereas the latter does not "need" the former).

Faith is a human need. We need faith to feel our lives meaningful - were it faith for god(s) or faith for something else (humanity in my case) is irrelevant. We want to have faith in something, we want to believe in something that makes our miserable lives (and yes - everyone's life is miserable by some standards) perhaps a bit more enjoyable - be it god, love, hate, music, some ideology or whatever.

But then there is religion. Religion is something tries to combine the individual faiths and feelings of people into a one single organized concept, that could be used for some means (bettering the lives of the "faithful", furthering political goals, controlling people, etc). That's were all this trouble begins. In that sense, I count many -isms and ideologies as religions - some of them are very loosely knit together (a bit like the early polytheist religions of mankind, with various ways of interpretation), while some are nearly "orthodox" (ie, with very strict rules and formalities). I'll give some examples later, if you wish.

Looking at this from a purely theist/atheist view, we're all probably somewhere in the mid-ground - we have some faithlike values we hold dear and we have some connections to somewhere (at least to the church of Dark Tranquillity worshippers), making us religious in that sense.

Everything above is, of course, only IMHO.

Back to the original questions later...

-Villain

Well i agree faith and religion are different things, but religion IS a human necesity too just as faith.

Religion is the human need to associate with others, we are social animals and we seek to survive as a group, Religion is a way of keeping like-minded people within the same roof, And the rules are not written in stone, i say this because the moral values of religions are becoming more flexible since a long time ago. Religion in many ways is comparable to a goverment of people who instead of sharing just territory, share the same faith. Now the means to impose that faith asuming it could be imposed is a complete different subject. But in short, you can say Religion is a need, a need of association.

 

[Fury]

A meaningful life, yes, Villain touched something here. That's true, untill a certain extent, I think we all feel the need that we have some reasons to do what we do. But, something global, that would lead every of our gestures. In a situation, when we don't know where to go, what to do, we refer to it to decide. In a sens, it's a need.

Who, here, can say that he/she doesn't feel this "need"?

 

[Misanthrope]

I.

I dont feel a need or a reason nor do i search a meaning, to me there is no meaning. It sounds complicated but im just a careless person living at random without regrets.

 

[Malaclypse]

gnrrrg
religion
ok, i won't think about this topic because it always gets me mad. and i don't want to spend days of discussing
i do not believe in a god, but since we are human beings with the ability to grasp four dimensions (with the fourth being limited to a single direction, so far), it is possible that other dimensions (mind you, not parallel universes or such) exist which we just can't notice / which just don't affect us. i am sure there's still a lot to learn about space and time, and i'm not so ignorant to say that mankind can explain everything. but from my limited point of view there are no gods for me, and someone who wants to persuade me must show me facts, something i can take notice of with my senses, and not brabble of some drunken bum who lived 2000 years ago.