For those that download music

[Jevil]

I will play the role of Devil's advocate.

Do you realize how many bands are nowadays active? More than ever.
Thousands of heavy, thrash, death, black...bands in hundreds countries trying to succeed in one of the hardest business.
The cake has its limitations, and every band wants to take a piece, but it is impossible for all.

Nowadays there are bands playing only for 6 months that want to record a LP!! Not a 4 track demo, 14 tracks!, they spend lot of money and try to be signed for a label when they fail, they selfproduce all the manufacturing, distribution, promotion... they sell 500 copies. It is because of internet?
If internet wouldn't exist, most of the bands would sell the same as now, just few copies. To satisfy all the bands in the world we should be buying hundred of CDs per year.

Do you think Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Metallica are effected by this? They don't. They even sell more than years ago.
This is the law of the jungle, the strong will survive.
U2 uploaded one album before releasing. After one month of downlodas, they release the album and they sold more than ever.
Imagine a band selling 5.000 copies today. Do you really think they would sell more without internet? I don't think so.

IN MY OPINION, we usually blame people who download but there are many other factors that we should take into account.

Yes, I have downloaded CDs several times, sometimes for curiosity, to check a band before a spend my 18-20 Euros in a CD. Other times because I can't wait until the album is released. Anyway I buy 20-30 CD's per year, and go to over 20 live shows. (950 €/year in music). The bands that I download and don't like, of course, I do not buy CD, and I delete the MP3. There are many bands that I've known via mp3 and now I've got the albums in my shelves. So what is wrong with it? Am I a criminal?

As I said, there are many bands, many competitors, many festivals, many live shows... That's another reason for people who say they sell less copies than years before.

I have released 4 albums with my band VALHALLA. More than once people told me after the shows that they downloaded the albums, ok. But they have paid the ticket for that show!
My experience is that playing gigs is economically better than the 10% of the royalties for the copies sold. So I don't mind if everybody download my albums, perhaps they will go to next show. If they would'nt download it, I'm sure they wouln't buy the album either.
By the way, my other band SOULITUDE, is free and downloadable. This way I have reached many mags, webs, people, that releasin it with a fucking horrible spanish label I couldn't.

Sorry for the speech.

If something is misunderstood, I'm sure it is because of my poor english.

 

[greyskull]

i just bought the new radiohead album.
how much did i pay??? well this is the ultimat metal forum £6.66. cant wait to listen,
i fucking love this band

 

[smy1]

very good points guitargodgt, paying for sucky mp3s is bullshit and i'll never do it.

alright here's my view - i'm young and naive and my views may be really flawed, feel free to contradict me

Sorry to say this, but judging from your following statement you must be young and naive ...

i steal all my music. i only buy what i can afford - about 5 of my top favourites per year, i'm trying to get more though because i like CD's.
i give away all my music on the internet. ideally i'd like to also have it available on CD for people who value the physical product.

Basically you are stealing then ... and giving away your self-written music is a noble thing, but it doesnt make up for stealing from others. What if nobody wants to hear your music? Is it then equal to a CD that 100000 people want to hear? I don't think so ...

why? because it's art. you shouldn't expect art to pay your bills, you create art because you have a calling. the best reward for me is for other people to enjoy my music, i don't really care if they're paying me for it or not. you work for art, not the other way around.

Reading this paragraph makes me believe that you have never:

a) spent years learning an instrument to the best of your abilities
b) spent years writing better songs while your friends went out to party
c) spent all of your money buying gear and paying people to help you record
d) spent months of your life riding around in cars and minivans to play concerts that barely pay for the gas money
e) had your band break up after all of the above, just to start over again.
f) more of the same ...

Nobody in this music game EXPECTS to make a living. Everyone would be happy to break even, but with people who download and share freely, the possibilities of breaking even are slimmer every day. Maybe read James´ first posts on that subject ...

as a talented artist, you can either become popular to a number of people and earn a living from your music, or you can not earn a dime. but guess what, the same is true for a shit artist! what i'm getting at is, there is no connection between the intrinsec value of your music and the amount of money it earns you. young people should be discouraged to pick up a guitar hoping to use it to earn a decent living - that's a path to mediocrity.

90% of all musicians will be musicians for 2 reasons: coolness and chicks. The other 10% are the musicians who make music in bands for years and years and who want to create "art". The reason for wanting to make money off of music is in most cases not to drive a new Mercedes and "git all the bitchez, y0!" but simply to be able to wake up in the morning and NOT having to go to work 10h a day and then find very little time to play music. To be able to NOT have to deny a tour because your employer won't let you go on vacation. Basically to focus on the music and make it better because you don't lose energy on other things. It's not about the bling ...

of course it's different when talking about live shows and making albums - a lot of people put in a lot of work here that's separate from the art itself and obviously everyone involved should earn a decent amount of money for their work.

This makes no sense. You are saying that the guy in the bedroom writing songs on his Tascam 464 shouldn't be thinking about making money (I agree, cause money should not be the MAIN motivation for making music), but you say everyone who puts out releases should. Earth to you: these people are the artists who you steal from ... these people are EVERYONE who exists in the public as an artist.

i'm not saying artists should starve to death, of course - i don't have a solution to the poor artists problem. what i AM saying is that artists should stop bitching about money they're not getting, the only purpose of their art should be as immaterial as the art itself.

Again, nobody is bitching about the millions they aint getting to buy a new airplane. We are bitching about the hundreds we aint getting to even release a new CD because our indie label decides that it's financially not feasible anymore to put out bands that sell 500 CDs.

so, if i don't have an alternative solution to feeding the artists and the engineers and everyone involved, does acting on what i feel is right make me a bad person?

That's like saying: I don't have a solution to prevent all child abuse on this planet. Does this make me a bad person for raping this child?

You are interpreting a lot of things the wrong way and in the end I am with the poster who said some pages ago: "If I can't afford it, I can't get it!" - so if you don't have the money to buy stuff, just accept it. Don't download it - and especially DON'T SHARE IT.

Don't feel offended if this comes across as harsh/strong, but it sounds like you have a lot of misconceptions about the way things are. Kinda like the Southpark Clip on Page 1 ...

 

[Thasis]

For me, I download music. But the music industry isn't loosing money off me, cause on the rare occasion that money does fall into my pockets it goes to them anyways. So they're making as much money as they're make off me if I didn't download. I just get to listen to more music. So I download music, I enjoy music, and I support the music industry as much as I can, but I don't want to not realize the potentional of so many bands just because I don't have millions of dollars to spend.

Edit: Btw, I buy the albums that I really like, so fuck the people who don't!

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

"This is what happens when you don't settle."

Garbage. This is what happens when you don't just accept the accusation that we say you stole something. We don't got to prove it at all you just have to accept it.

If your dumb enough to leave your network open any asshole niebore could steal shit off using your network (serves you right I guess). but they should have had to prove that she had that shit on here computer to start with.

I know this is off topic and yes stealing/sharing/illeagal downloading is all wrong but common these tactics are absolute garbage. I agree with CO.

 

[madbutcher]

That's like saying: I don't have a solution to prevent all child abuse on this planet. Does this make me a bad person for raping this child?

Wait a second, did I just see read a comparison of downloading music to the raping of a child?

 

[whitedamp]

you shouldn't expect art to pay your bills, you create art because you have a calling. the best reward for me is for other people to enjoy my music, i don't really care if they're paying me for it or not. you work for art, not the other way around.

Oh, I disagree. Even Da Vinci and Michaelangelo had mecenas to sponsor their works. Cappella Sistina was a request from the church and it doesn´t mean that it isn´t art.

Take paintings as an example. Just a few painters get rich selling paintings nowadays, and I think that music industry will be soon on the same stage. I mean, who don´t know a friend who paints and even put his paintings for sale, but don´t expect in any way to live from it? The thing is that paintings industry/market have never reached the magnitude of music industry on the last century. There aren´t many people out there living from paintings as there is from music.

We are used to a market that will change - is changing - and doesn´t matter the opinion of RIAA, yours or mine about it. The whole thing is going astray and RIAA is holding on tight just like the Luddites on industrial revolution... which it´s just plain silly.

 

[26]

Edit:

just ignore this. stupid thought by me.

 

[smy1]

Wait a second, did I just see read a comparison of downloading music to the raping of a child?

Only if you misread/misunderstood what I wrote ...

 

[Metaltastic]

Seriously dude, it's there only as an analogy, and is exaggerated for the sake of making a point.

 

[prowlergrig]

smy1 you misunderstood much of what i was saying

Sorry to say this, but judging from your following statement you must be young and naive ...

well yes i know, i wasn't being sarcastic

Basically you are stealing then ... and giving away your self-written music is a noble thing, but it doesnt make up for stealing from others. What if nobody wants to hear your music? Is it then equal to a CD that 100000 people want to hear? I don't think so ...

i never said that, i don't see it as compensating, and i'd probably do as much downloading even if i didn't make music.
all i was saying is, downloading mp3s and giving away mp3s are both within my frame of ethics

Reading this paragraph makes me believe that you have never:

[...]

Nobody in this music game EXPECTS to make a living. Everyone would be happy to break even, but with people who download and share freely, the possibilities of breaking even are slimmer every day. Maybe read James´ first posts on that subject ...

of course i haven't been in those situations. and i've read james' posts, they were very insightful. what i was saying is, as an artist you shouldn't even expect to break even. do i WANT good artists to not break even? nope, but i don't see it as my fault when they don't.

90% of all musicians will be musicians for 2 reasons: coolness and chicks.

right, most of these people shouldn't be making music if you ask me

The other 10% are the musicians who make music in bands for years and years and who want to create "art". [...] Basically to focus on the music and make it better because you don't lose energy on other things. It's not about the bling ...

of course i know that, and it's ideal to be able to make music without having to worry about cash. but this isn't an ideal world and like i said, me abstaining from hearing lots of music won't make it ideal.

This makes no sense. You are saying that the guy in the bedroom writing songs on his Tascam 464 shouldn't be thinking about making money (I agree, cause money should not be the MAIN motivation for making music), but you say everyone who puts out releases should.

no that wasn't what i was saying. i said that people like audio engineers should expect to be paid, like any other engineer. artists shouldn't.

Again, nobody is bitching about the millions they aint getting to buy a new airplane. We are bitching about the hundreds we aint getting to even release a new CD because our indie label decides that it's financially not feasible anymore to put out bands that sell 500 CDs.

then just put it on the internet or come up with other ways of reaching the public. that should be the point, reaching the public, not breaking even.

That's like saying: I don't have a solution to prevent all child abuse on this planet. Does this make me a bad person for raping this child?

nope, it's like saying: I don't have a solution to prevent all child abuse on this planet. Does me not walking home children i like, make me a bad person?
it's not my responsibility to take care of children in danger, and it's not my responsibility to put food in your mouth. i can do it if i really like you or your product, but you can't make me do it

You are interpreting a lot of things the wrong way and in the end I am with the poster who said some pages ago: "If I can't afford it, I can't get it!" - so if you don't have the money to buy stuff, just accept it. Don't download it - and especially DON'T SHARE IT.

sorry dude, i'd rather expand my musical horizons as much as i can, and reward the artists i like in the best way i can: appreciating their work, telling my friends about them, going to their shows and, if i can afford it, buying their albums.

Don't feel offended if this comes across as harsh/strong, but it sounds like you have a lot of misconceptions about the way things are. Kinda like the Southpark Clip on Page 1 ...

i'm not offended, and yes i probably do have them. still waiting for life to teach me a lesson i didn't see that sp clip

 

[prowlergrig]

also, good points by Jevil and Thasis

Oh, I disagree. Even Da Vinci and Michaelangelo had mecenas to sponsor their works. Cappella Sistina was a request from the church and it doesn´t mean that it isn´t art.

of course, there's nothing wrong with getting sponsors to fund your art making. da vinci and michelangelo didn't get those sponsors to buy them a cushy life, they got them first and foremost to be able to make art.

Take paintings as an example. Just a few painters get rich selling paintings nowadays, and I think that music industry will be soon on the same stage. I mean, who don´t know a friend who paints and even put his paintings for sale, but don´t expect in any way to live from it?

yep, and that's a good place for any artform to be. painters don't start painting expecting it to pay the bills and neither should musicians.

at the end of the day, maybe a regular job is inevitable. and yes, it does restrict your time for art, but it's a compromise you have to make.
i often think how much music i'd make if i didn't go to school and work 8-10 hours a day ... but then i enjoy some of my illegally downloaded music and i feel good again

 

[smy1]

prowler: so basically what you are saying is that if I come to your house and eat half of the food there and then tell my friends that your backdoor is open and they can just walk in and eat your food for free, that is okay, simply because I work an 8h job and have little time/funds to buy groceries AND because it fits *my* ethics to eat the food that you paid for with the money made from working your 10h job?

In an ideal world you'd have an endless free supply of food, but seeing as this is not an ideal world, I'd probably get my ass beat by you real quick ...

 

[prowlergrig]

dude that's not a very good analogy at all... music you create isn't food you buy for yourself, it's "food" you make for other people. the dilemma is whether/how much people should pay for getting some of your endless supply food (i mean mp3s here, they can be endlessly replicated) - i say, only pay for the really good food

 

[Mortal_Dezire]

I'll add my $.02 here,

I used to steal a fair amount of music. I'll admit it. I also bought a lot of CD's, but the really good stuff, (Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, ect) was EXTREMELY hard to find here in the middle of Nebraska, (This was before I started buying shit off of Amazon).
I justified what I was doing because I had been made to believe, (much like sooooo many out there) that the artist didn't get shit for their cd sales and that they made their money in touring and merch sales.

I have since come to the conclusion that this is definately NOT the case....

I have been in a number of bands and musical projects since I was 14. When you're that age, yeah sure! Its great to say that you're an artist that doesn't give a fuck about the money. YOU'RE 14 FUCKIN YEARS OLD!!!

I eventually realized that to make it in this business, you have to work harder than you would any 9 to 5. That's right, all you idealists out there, this is a job. Just like anything else. The exception is that I don't want to kill myself within the first 5 minutes of anything involving my band. Any employee or business owner would expect a paycheck of some sort from there job. How is being a musician any different?

I understand where a lot of you are coming from with the RIAA. What they do a lot of times is really fucked, but this is what its come to because so many people seem to think that its ok to steal shit from artists. The RIAA, as much as I hate to say it, has become a necessary evil.

Its a sad situation that this mother is going bankrupt and that her world is now in the shitter, but that's what happens when you steal shit! It reminds me of a dude I know who supported his family by dealing drugs. When he got busted, the family went to shit. Sad story, but thats what happens when you break the law. We're not talking rocket science here, boys and girls. Just simple ethics.

I know I'm ranting, so I'll sum it up real quick. I'm a musician that is working my ass off just like everyone else out there. When 1 person buys 1 $5 cd from me, that's a week's worth of Ramen that I can live off of. I, (like many others) am not looking to be Lars Ulrich. I just want to be able to tell my boss at the 9to5 to go fuck herself. I want to be able to wake up in the morning and know that I am supporting myself as a musician. That my rent is paid with my music. I don't think thats too much to ask.

If anyone wants to be a "starving artist" that's their choice. You wanna give your music away for free and live as some bohemian derelict? GO FOR IT! That's your deal. I'm not looking to be a musical version of Bukowski or Henry Miller. That's my choice.

And if I ever found anyone stealing my music, I'd beat their ass like I caught them breaking into my house.

 

[elmuchoescadawg]

dude that's not a very good analogy at all... music you create isn't food you buy for yourself, it's "food" you make for other people. the dilemma is whether/how much people should pay for getting some of your endless supply food (i mean mp3s here, they can be endlessly replicated) - i say, only pay for the really good food

And I say theres no point arguing with you. if you want to read the whole thread which you admit you havent you will see that your arguements do not stand up morally or legally. As an engineer Im currently genociating with a band to track an album who have a really small budget. Ive spoken to the gus whos mixing the album whos complaining that the lable no longer offer points on albums. Now this isnt your fault but ti is the fault of everyone life you who is reducing the amount of cash available in the industry to pay this band, myself and the guy who is mixing it. If more people were buying stuff from this lable instead of downloading it then maybe we would all be on a better fee.

This fee in question is what I buy my food with. I say pay for everything. If you want it buy it. If you buy an album thats no good put it on ebay.

People world wide are being prosecuted for downloading music. Hopefully you will learn when its your turn.

 

[prowlergrig]

haha where'd i admit that? i have read the whole thread actually.
and yes of course there's no point arguing this
fact is, without illegal downloading, i'd listen to a small fraction of the music i listen to, so i probably wouldn't buy that album anyway.

oh and incidentally, buying albums from obscure bands is quite difficult/impossible and expensive where i live - i know that doesn't really count as an argument but i just thought i'd mention it

 

[Mortal_Dezire]

Well good for you, man. Just remember, its pricks like you that make it so much harder for many of us struggling musicians to even make a recording. What are you going to download when no one has any money to record anything?

 

[prowlergrig]

haha before calling me a prick you should know that i'm a "struggling musician" myself. couple that with the fact that the vast majority of "struggling musicians" have no talent (including me perhaps, who knows) and it'll be quite hard for me to care about my fellow struggling musicians. like i said, if you want money, get a job. if you want to make art, play the guitar.
even without an industry, there will always be people making music.

 

[elmuchoescadawg]

haha before calling me a prick you should know that i'm a "struggling musician" myself. couple that with the fact that the vast majority of "struggling musicians" have no talent (including me perhaps, who knows) and it'll be quite hard for me to care about my fellow struggling musicians. like i said, if you want money, get a job. if you want to make art, play the guitar.
even without an industry, there will always be people making music.

I actually work in various aspects of music for a living and yes I make money at it. many of my friends also make their living making music. Ive had friends of mine tell me how their sales have declined since illegal downloading became popular. I know name musicians who havent had a day job in years talking to me about having to find work between tours because the cash just isnt there any more.

Just because you want to be a struggling musician it doesnt mean we all do.

Theres no way you can defend yourslef on this you are actually in the wrong.