The books definitely imply that Renly is gay and Loras as well, perhaps, but it's not at clear that they have a relationship unless I missed something...the only scene I can think of where they're together is the one where Catelyn goes to try and get an alliance and I don't remember anything gay happening then.
Game of Thrones
- Thread starter Dak
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I did. There are a few quotes, but they're all from the perspective of other characters accusing them of homosexuality. Not saying they're not gay in the books. It's clear that Renly is gay in the books, since everyone clearly knows he prefers men. It's not so obvious that Loras is gay, but I can accept that. I just don't see anything in the books to imply that they're lovers. Yeah, Jaime said something, but that's just bluster. I may have missed something, though, since obviously I wasn't looking for it. Their homosexuality isn't an important plot point but them being lovers is, since it would help explain why Mace Tyrell threw in with Renly when he crowned himself.
My overall opinion on this is that I wish Martin had been a little less subtle in the books.
My overall opinion on this is that I wish Martin had been a little less subtle in the books.
Einherjar86
Active Member
WAIF actually makes a good point that I didn't consider. I mean, Martin obviously intends for his readers to infer that Renly and Loras are lovers, but that's all we can do from the text we're given. If Martin was a writer who was more concerned with theory, he would never have admitted that they were lovers. He would have left that to the sphere of textual interpretation.
Waif: You completely missed something. It's plain as day in the books that they are not only in love/have a relationship, but are passionately in love. I mean hell, the entire berzerking scene with Loras when he discovers Renly slain is to drive that sole point home. Again, the textual evidence is plain as day as to their commitment to each other.
And what the hell do you mean them not being gay isn't important, but them being lovers is? If they were lovers, then they would have to be Bi, Gay, or in some sort of denial.
@Ein: I'm just going to agree that one cannot just walk out and say "Sire, Loras is a gay!" in the text specifically because that word did not exist at all until the 60's. And hell, the entire point of MArtin's POV style is to make as much use of inference as it can - it's through inference we question whether or not Davos is dead, and it's through inference we learn a lot of the political scandals happening throughout King's Landing. To actually have a scene demonstrating them being physically gay would require either: A. Loras or Renly as a POV chapter, or B. someone walking in on them jousting into each others asses.
He only admitted they were lovers so all the mouth-breathing fanboys would stop bitching about a dude sucking another guys cock on television because they didn't catch a major expositional point on their first read through the books. I caught nearly every hint on my first read, but many MANY other people didn't. And there has been a HUGE whine-a-thon on many message boards about their blatant homosexuality as compared to it being blatantly inferred through the text. I'll agree with another poster who had an opinion on it: the way it was depicted in the show is perfect because not only did it make these characters immediately memorable, but it sets up the stage for the introduction of Stannis, the introduction of the entire Tyrell family as political opponents that are near in strength to the Lannisters (which is really going to fuck with peoples heads when they band together later on), the rules of succession and the power grab that will occur if Robert dies. Plus, their entire relationship also plays heavily into Brienne's character growth and eventual expulsion.
The one counterpoint to the shows depiction that I will acquiesce to is that they could have shot it a different way. There was no need to see two dudes manscaping each other and then 30 seconds of cocksucking sounds. Do I really care though? Nah, hell I would have laughed if they made a prosthetic dick for Loras to suck and showed it for a full five minutes. I do wish they didn't make Renly so... squeamish. He was supposed to be somewhat like Robert, not only in appearance but in vigor. He's clearly shown he has the iron to do things that need to be done (flat out killing Dany to save thousands), but they took away some of his warrior skill which does suck a little (hell, he took part in the tourney and lost to the hound). Unless they continue showing parts of the tourney next episode, they missed a prime chance to show that Renly actually can fight, and that he just has a massively different temperament when compared to his older brother.
And what the hell do you mean them not being gay isn't important, but them being lovers is? If they were lovers, then they would have to be Bi, Gay, or in some sort of denial.
@Ein: I'm just going to agree that one cannot just walk out and say "Sire, Loras is a gay!" in the text specifically because that word did not exist at all until the 60's. And hell, the entire point of MArtin's POV style is to make as much use of inference as it can - it's through inference we question whether or not Davos is dead, and it's through inference we learn a lot of the political scandals happening throughout King's Landing. To actually have a scene demonstrating them being physically gay would require either: A. Loras or Renly as a POV chapter, or B. someone walking in on them jousting into each others asses.
He only admitted they were lovers so all the mouth-breathing fanboys would stop bitching about a dude sucking another guys cock on television because they didn't catch a major expositional point on their first read through the books. I caught nearly every hint on my first read, but many MANY other people didn't. And there has been a HUGE whine-a-thon on many message boards about their blatant homosexuality as compared to it being blatantly inferred through the text. I'll agree with another poster who had an opinion on it: the way it was depicted in the show is perfect because not only did it make these characters immediately memorable, but it sets up the stage for the introduction of Stannis, the introduction of the entire Tyrell family as political opponents that are near in strength to the Lannisters (which is really going to fuck with peoples heads when they band together later on), the rules of succession and the power grab that will occur if Robert dies. Plus, their entire relationship also plays heavily into Brienne's character growth and eventual expulsion.
The one counterpoint to the shows depiction that I will acquiesce to is that they could have shot it a different way. There was no need to see two dudes manscaping each other and then 30 seconds of cocksucking sounds. Do I really care though? Nah, hell I would have laughed if they made a prosthetic dick for Loras to suck and showed it for a full five minutes. I do wish they didn't make Renly so... squeamish. He was supposed to be somewhat like Robert, not only in appearance but in vigor. He's clearly shown he has the iron to do things that need to be done (flat out killing Dany to save thousands), but they took away some of his warrior skill which does suck a little (hell, he took part in the tourney and lost to the hound). Unless they continue showing parts of the tourney next episode, they missed a prime chance to show that Renly actually can fight, and that he just has a massively different temperament when compared to his older brother.
Where? Can you point me to this? I'm not even questioning, I just want to see it. I'll take another look at Renly's death scene.
I'm saying it's not an important plot point aside from that it allows their relationship.
There are a lot of scattered statements from every other character about Renly and Loras, but Loras let's it slip completely during and after Renly dies in A Storm of Swords. I especially like this quote:
Reread the section where Renly is destroyed by that shadow and Loras straight up kills two of the rainbow guard in a fit of fury over his loss of Renly in ASOS- it gives it a totally different meaning that just fits far too perfectly.
And of course when you take this into context with everything else he has done and stated... it makes for probably one of the few pure relationships that could be found in the book.Loras said:
Reread the section where Renly is destroyed by that shadow and Loras straight up kills two of the rainbow guard in a fit of fury over his loss of Renly in ASOS- it gives it a totally different meaning that just fits far too perfectly.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Satanstoenail
My Larpstyle determines my Derpstyle
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
To those of you who have read the books...
Do the characters age by book? Do we see Bronn become a man?
and is this season going to be the whole first book or just part?
Do the characters age by book? Do we see Bronn become a man?
and is this season going to be the whole first book or just part?
Einherjar86
Active Member
Whole first book from what I've heard. And from what I can tell, we are in for a fucking bumpy and fast-paced ride for the rest of this season...
Valerie
¯\(ã)/¯
- Aug 29, 2005
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I think he meant Bran.
This helps, though to be honest I still can't put a name to every character yet.
This helps, though to be honest I still can't put a name to every character yet.
I was waiting for the Golden Crown since the beginning. The moon door was not as described in the book, but was cool enough in this rendition to be allowed.
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
thx.
Do any of you guys know how old Bran is when he becomes prince in the Clash of Kings? I'm just trying to get an idea of the time-line.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Uh, dude, some people here might not have read the books so you should be careful about saying stuff like that. Fortunately in this case, I have no clue what you're talking about.
Why are you so interested in the timeline? Just watch the show!
Why are you so interested in the timeline? Just watch the show!
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