Have you bothered to look at the statistics across Europe, not just in selected countries like Germany and Sweden?
And as far as violent crime in America goes, I believe that it's committed at higher rates by domestics than by immigrants.
Okay great, I'm happy to hear it. Not sure how it's relevant, as I never said Muslims are more criminal than everyone else.
Why is it that Germany and Sweden are discounted? If I bother to find another EU country to back up my position will that also be discounted?
Apostasy is a crime in certain countries. Are American or European Muslims legally shunned or murdered for renouncing their religion? If not, then it doesn't seem very objective to me.
Uh, legally? What are you on about? In most Muslim countries shunning or murder for apostasy isn't legally enforced (or if it is, it's irrelevant as these things hardly ever reach the courts due to embarrassment on the part of the family) but culturally enforced and yes it happens in the west, the murdering less so (but still it happens, in fact there are cases of people fleeing to the west only to be murdered later by family members who fly to the west just to do so) but the shunning most certainly is very common. I have a Muslim friend who hasn't spoken to his parents and older siblings in nearly a decade.
Because it arose in a time of turmoil? Sure, it was born in violence and dissent. But that doesn't make the Hadith an accurate account of Muhammad's words and life. It's a political document associated with the foundation of the then-legitimate caliphate.
Again, a useless point. Tell the 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide that the Hadith isn't an accurate account of Muhammad's words and life. They're the ones that believe it is so.
I'm not denying the violent history of Islam, no more than I would deny the violent history of Christianity. I am insisting that, in both cases, documents such as the Hadith, or the Nicene Creed, are as much political documents as they are religious.
Yes, and...? Islam overwhelmingly still grants supreme authority to the Hadith, which is a major part of the problem with Islam. As a faith it is entirely unwilling to shed it's more barbaric customs and traditions. Any attempt to actually reform Islam has always been met with violence.
I also believe, however, that plenty of Muslims view the writings of the Hadith, even if they are the accurate statements of Muhammad, to be historically and culturally conditioned beliefs--that is, to perhaps be irrelevant for a more modern time and place. Christians and Jews are able to do this with their holy books.
Well, feel free to actually prove that, because that's news to me and religion has been my principle interest for over a decade now and I've never heard of any great amount of Muslims that essentially dismiss the Hadith as an important component to practicing Islam. Personally I think you're pulling that our of your ass, which is why you prefaced it as a belief on your part.
I think it's possibly naive of you to assume that all Muslims are mindless drones that don't question certain passages of their faith.
When have I said anything to that effect? I said and have said before specifically that the main source of terror in the Muslim community is
other Muslims. Muslim women who want to engage in liberal fashion, goes to a mosque and is bullied by the men there. OF COURSE I know that there are Muslims who question bits of the Qu'ran and Hadith, but the point is they're trapped by a culture into either silence or enablism. If they leave? Their life is shattered and even ended.
Again, turn your gaze on Western Muslims for a moment (not to mention the millions of Muslims in Muslim countries who also disagree with the institution of sharia law).
You demonize a religion yet simultaneously acknowledge that millions of Muslims disagree with its various practiced forms. You seem to think that apostasy is the only way of relieving ourselves from Islamic terrorism. Do I really have to tell you that this isn't true? Do you really think it's impossible for a Muslim to believe while actively augmenting her faith in specific articles? Are you really so fearful that any faithful Muslim scares the shit out of you?
Because that's what you sound like.
Well, I'm not particularly interested in how you're interpreting how I talk, let that be known. You see fear in others where you feel passion yourself.
I do believe in Islamic reformation personally and actually faithful religious people in general alarm me to some degree, but Islam is objectively the main global religious problem. Objectively. Christians and Jews are not driving trucks through crowds or beheading priests in cathedrals on behalf of Allah. I'm sorry that your post-modernist worldview won't allow you to see things clearly.
I wish individuals like Zeba Khan, Tariq Ramadan or Maajid Nawaz were the voices that held sway over the Islamic world, but it's not the case.
Instead you have Muslims mobilised in large numbers by radical Imams and community agitators (as well as genuinely reactionary Muslims acting on their own) when things like the Muhammad drawing controversies happened. Charlie Hebdoe, the Danish cartoonist, Theo van Gogh and so on, actions often committed because voices of influence aren't moderate.
*Sharia law is a double-negative btw, not to be
that guy but...
You've constructed an implicit spectrum in your argument of either total apostasy or fanatic belief. You've left no middle ground. Any argument that acknowledges the existence of progressive Muslims in the "non-Muslim world" (since this is how we talk about these things) is automatically irrelevant because it forces you to reconcile with the problematic reality that Muslims can in fact be tolerant, peaceful individuals, and that there's nothing conflicting for them about feeling this way (and I do know Muslims, so I know this to be true).
Maybe you'll say "of course it's true, no need to point out such a blatantly obvious point"--but it is necessary because you're refusing that it's a possibility, even if you don't realize you're doing that.
Uhh. How is that true at all? I haven't created that dichotomy, you have. You're projecting some kind of bigoted "muh Islamophobia" narrative onto me when I haven't once done so myself.
Let's not forget that the main source of terror for Muslims living in the west are other Muslims
I said that^ in my earlier response. Did you think I was implying that radical Islam oppresses itself there? The moderates are always oppressed by the rest, it's true of any violent ideology.
Well of course Muslims would say that, they aren't trying to leave Islam or defy Sharia or be queer etc. That's when the trouble starts.
Then I said this^ did you think I was saying radical Islamists are defying Sharia? That wouldn't make sense, unless you consider that I was talking about moderates.
Oh, another classic! "How do you sleep at night?" I sleep knowing that there are so many exceptions to the absolutist nonsense you trod out when it comes to Islamic violence.
What absolutism? You don't seem to have actually read anything I've written and are just operating based on how your emotions project onto my position. What the fuck? I hate to keep bringing up your emotions here but nowhere have I created a dichotomy of apostate vs radical.
Islam would do good to study the models of Bosnia/Herzegovina and Kosovo imo.
