If Mort Divine ruled the world

[CiG]

There's never been a cultural narrative that "all white men are rapists" (and the Gillette commercial isn't promoting such a narrative).

Nobody said the Gillette advert was racial, just sexist.

 

[rms]

you could, a black man intervenes twice to stop whitey,which I would argue was intended.

 

[Einherjar86]

You must have missed my edit:

I'm not sure I follow. No black men were named... by Robb? Of course not. It was a false accusation to begin with, so why would she have a name? All she said was that she was raped by unknown black assailants.

No names were mentioned in any news reports because there were no identifiable aggressors.

Maybe I'm not understand why that's important. Historically speaking, if a white woman accused a black man of rape, she didn't need to name the black man. The lynch mob would just find the most suitable scapegoat for the accusation.

Nobody said the Gillette advert was racial, just sexist.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone said that.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I'm not sure I follow. No black men were named... by Robb? Of course not. It was a false accusation to begin with, so why would she have a name? All she said was that she was raped by unknown black assailants.

No names were mentioned in any news reports because there were no identifiable aggressors.

Maybe I'm not understand why that's important. Historically speaking, if a white woman accused a black man of rape, she didn't need to name the black man. The lynch mob would just find the most suitable scapegoat for the accusation.

Once again your literacy is unparalleled.

accusation noun
ac·cu·sa·tion | \ ˌa-kyə-ˈzā-shən,
-(ˌ)kyü-\
Definition of accusation

1 : a charge of wrongdoing The evidence confirms the accusations made against him. She denied the accusation.
2 : the act of accusing someone : the state or fact of being accused

It's not an accusation without an accused, it's simply a story. Your claim that lynch mobs always just grabbed the first black man in the vicinity is both baseless (usually it was a specific accusation, and when not, the mob would often bring the black man before the claimed victim first to "verify" the identity) and irrelevant (this was 2001, not 1901).

 

[Einherjar86]

Once again your literacy is unparalleled.

It's not an accusation without an accused, it's simply a story. Your claim that lynch mobs always just grabbed the first black man in the vicinity is both baseless (usually it was a specific accusation, and when not, the mob would often bring the black man before the claimed victim first to "verify" the identity) and irrelevant (this was 2001, not 1901).

If the word "accuse" is such a sticking point for you, then replace it with something else. A white woman claimed that four black men raped her. A white woman filed a report that four black men raped her.

Be a fucking adult.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Yes, and big fucking whoop, an accusation where no one was accused of anything, no victims were hurt, and the criminal was charged for their crime.

 

[Einherjar86]

Big fucking whoop, you're still a robot.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Big fucking whoop, you're still a robot.

In what sense?

 

[Einherjar86]

You incapacity to see the Robb incident as part of a historical narrative. Talk about illiteracy.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You incapacity to see the Robb incident as part of a historical narrative. Talk about illiteracy.

Narratives are stories, which is precisely how I framed that incident. Your ignorance of the historical narrative which also includes whites being falsely accused of sexual violence shows that you are telling a fiction, your particular field of expertise, not a history.

 

[Einherjar86]

Histories are stories.

They come from the same root, historia, which can mean "narrative." Furthermore, history has meant simply "story" at certain times in the English language.

All histories are narratives we tell ourselves (personally, socially, culturally, etc.). The point is to study those histories and determine their validity, ideological values, and exclusivity.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I understood your use of the word 'historical' to mean vigorous study of history for the purpose of attaining greater objective understanding, not any random story that some academic pseud invents to promote their post-Marxist politics. My mistake for assuming too much out of you.

 

[Einherjar86]

Feelings mutual.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

I understood your use of the word 'historical' to mean vigorous study of history for the purpose of attaining greater objective understanding...

There's quite a nice monograph on this that is often on the first semester reading list for graduate students of history in the US:

tl;dr it's not and never really has been, and the only one's who haven't come to their senses on this is after the post-WWII era are ideologues.

Here's a douchey, flowery, over-the-top review I wrote on the book for a seminar after my second read through: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-...ef=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0521357454

I don't want to get into semantics, however, and will agree that the historical discipline does approach history with that ideal, albeit without the rosy eyes and fluttering heart of ejaculating objective essence.

edit: I should add that I'm twisted enough that reading this in CC inspired me to pursue graduate studies.

 

[EternalMetal]

Primarily my class and opportunities, but also my skin color.

Im guessing that implies that you grew up in an affluent household with college educated parents? I was also born white, and I had to make my own contacts in order to climb the ladder. All of my high power contacts are democratic liberals who sympathize with minorities, so im not sure if it would have made much of a difference if I were black. I was also the first person in even my extended family to go to college and actually graduate, so I had to figure it all out on my own. Forgive me if I am a bit bitter over the idea of 'white privilege'.

To give an example of what I mean by not taking offense due to privilege:

As a white guy, I'm not part of a demographic that has historically been regarded with suspicion when it comes to sexual crime. When black men see an ad associating them with rape, it's possible it registers a long history of general suspicion toward black males, from the Scottsboro Boys to Katie Robb's false accusation in 2001. We think we've come a long way, but the truth is that a lot of black men live under constant threat, in the back of their minds, of being accused of a violent or sex crime.

I consider it a privilege that I haven't had to live under that threat; and for that reason, I don't see the ad as personally offensive or accusatory.

The #metoo movement is just exactly that though. Perhaps historically black men were more frequently called out, but with #metoo they don't only include white people, but people of power and influence. Every man is now fair game for a rape accusation, so if it wasn't in the back of your mind before, it should be now. But iirc you are married, and if your relationship is stable you shouldn't have to worry as much as us single guys. The first thing that women think about before a first date meetup is trying to avoid a rapey situation. I really don't see how being white somehow removes me from this idea of rape culture.

You incapacity to see the Robb incident as part of a historical narrative. Talk about illiteracy.

The narrative has shifted and has started to include white people for quite a while now. If this was the 90s id probably agree with you.

The advert repeats the "boys will be boys" narrative which implies that what it means to be a boy is to be a violent rapist or something. That advert is an example of casual misandry.

I guess the reason why im less outraged by this ad than some is that this narrative has already been perpetuated. You would have to be living under a rock not to have heard of #metoo and ideas about rape culture. Also commercials have featured the 'idiot man' for almost as long as I remember, so misandry in advertising has never been anything new. I agree with you that it makes no sense for a men's razor company to take this approach though. They could have said basically the same thing (real men respect women) without bringing rape into it, and for that I now understand why people are ticked off.

 

[CiG]

Sure, I agree, the advert really is just the same old thing and #MeToo is no secret, but I don't see anybody saying the same thing when backlash over something racist or misogynistic airs, even though misogyny and racism is nothing new. Not that I'm exactly offended or upset in any real sense, it's just a subject to shitpost about.

Mostly I'm just loling over how idiotic it is economically.

 

[Einherjar86]

Im guessing that implies that you grew up in an affluent household with college educated parents? I was also born white, and I had to make my own contacts in order to climb the ladder. All of my high power contacts are democratic liberals who sympathize with minorities, so im not sure if it would have made much of a difference if I were black. I was also the first person in even my extended family to go to college and actually graduate, so I had to figure it all out on my own. Forgive me if I am a bit bitter over the idea of 'white privilege'.

I did come from an affluent household, but not from college-educated parents. My parents grew up in rural upstate NY and my father started a company before I was born. By the time I came along, they were financially comfortable. But my dad dropped out of college after about one year, I think, and my mom never went.

That’s been my biggest challenge to overcome. All the academic connections and achievements I’ve made are my own. And every time I visit my hometown I’m resubmerged in “life beyond academia,” or whatever we want to call it.

My parents are smart, but not intellectuals. It makes for challenging conversations sometimes, but also productive ones. Can’t necessarily say the same thing for other members of my family. I see way too many “Islam is evil” and “liberals don’t know which bathroom to use” comments on Facebook to take seriously anyone who accuses me of living in a bubble.

But I am financially and culturally privileged (I think, anyway).

The #metoo movement is just exactly that though. Perhaps historically black men were more frequently called out, but with #metoo they don't only include white people, but people of power and influence. Every man is now fair game for a rape accusation, so if it wasn't in the back of your mind before, it should be now. But iirc you are married, and if your relationship is stable you shouldn't have to worry as much as us single guys. The first thing that women think about before a first date meetup is trying to avoid a rapey situation. I really don't see how being white somehow removes me from this idea of rape culture.

I am married, yes.

From what I can tell, those overwhelmingly accused of something tend to have checkered pasts, or have exhibited questionable behavior. That doesn’t make them automatically guilty of anything, of course. But I figure as long as I’m not an asshole irl, I don’t have much to worry about.

The narrative has shifted and has started to include white people for quite a while now. If this was the 90s id probably agree with you.

Perhaps, but I would say that doesn’t cancel the historical meaning and gravity that’s come to be attached to black masculinity. I definitely agree that our culture is nothing like what it used to be re. blacks accused of rape. But the threat of accusation is a very different experience for a black person than for a white one. Both are serious, but one taps into a different cultural narrative than the other.

 

[CiG]

But I figure as long as I’m not an asshole irl, I don’t have much to worry about.

No offense but that's pretty naive as well as rather ironically conservative. What next, abstinence until marriage? It's not being an asshole that makes men vulnerable to rape accusations, it's promiscuity.

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

Real men should respect women

except that the ad is kinda implying that most men don't respect women
which is wierd, and horribly inaccurate

 

[Einherjar86]

No offense but that's pretty naive as well as rather ironically conservative. What next, abstinence until marriage? It's not being an asshole that makes men vulnerable to rape accusations, it's promiscuity.

I don't think it's naive, but fine.

None of my amorous interactions with women began by me saying "hey good lookin, what's cookin?" They began by having a genuine conversation with a woman about some topic other than sex. It's amazing what the art of conversation can lead to.