IN FLAMES new album being released on 1st March, 2019

[miniroch]

They do owe their career to the fans, that's just a statement of fact. Without fans they have no career. What that means in terms of how they treat/have treated the older fans is up for debate, but I think it's a bit odd to suggest the band at the very least don't owe those fans some respect for helping them achieve their goals. It's a pretty cold way of looking at the world - although you do see this kind of "fuck everyone else" attitude everywhere nowadays, so it does make sense even if I strongly disagree with it.

Does that means Apple owes their money to their fans?
Or was it iPhone + marketing + PR + great decisions making + proper moment of releasing it, etc.?

Because what you say, is not how business works. Not at all. They made their fans, doing great music. Apple made their fans, doing great tech. Miley Cyrus probably made her fans showing tits on stage.
Sure, they wouldn't exist without their fans, but they literally made them. It's same process for each company and I still don't believe that any old Nokia fan should expect any respect as their boots fan. IF lost most of their old fans, so why should they care so much about them? Business-wise they should take care of the new ones, who enjoy SC, Battles, and will enjoy ITM. And they will do that and they will have their own festival, whiskey brand, posters, stickers and glowing snickers. Simply because they know how it runs.

 

[eochaid]

Yes, that is how record labels work. They sell your stuff, and that's it. If you give your signature t oanything else, that is your problem, but considering how IF never released a greatest hit record, it is heavily implied that they managed to avoid the dark side of the record labels, and now they are big enough to not be afraid of being a slave to them.

No. That's not how it works.

Apple made their fans, doing great tech.

Lol no. Apple is selling hihgly overpriced products.

 

[Jester Slave]

Fact is Slave, whether you accept it or not, there are a lot of fans who feel or have felt like IF disrespected them with their words and decisions post-2000. That's why there are hardly any proper older fans left, and there is so much spite towards them online, way more than any other comparable band from that era and genre. IMO it's also part of the reasons their popularity nosedived after Come Clarity, but the overall quality of records like ASOP and SC also played a big part in that.

I personally don't feel disrespected as I only started buying their stuff after they started breaking away from the undergroud, I wasn't one of those guys buying their albums when they had just released Lunar Strain, TJR or Whoracle. By the time I really started getting into the band they were already getting shit on for Clayman and then even more with Reroute. That said, I do understand why people would feel like IF gave them a middle finger after they helped support them. They basically did.

I don't think fan appreciation has much to do with being super popular or not. If they like the music, they buy it, and go to their shows, if they don't, they don't. Trust me, 90% of the people who buy records, merch and concert tickets have no idea what Anders says on twitter or in other interviews.

The fall-off after CC can also not be because of the olds fans, because their popularity was payed by the new fans. The R2R-CC era brought in more new listeners, than they had before their entire career, so even if they were to publicly burn TJR, someone who fell in love with The Quiet Place would not give a fuck about that.

Also, after you reach a certain level of maturity, you have to accept that even famous people are just humans, thus assholes. Most importantly, they are not your friends, and even if they tried to be, they simply can not be. If artists like people in IF want to keep their sanity, they have to ignore you and me.

And yes, the reason their manstream popularity dropped was due to the changes from ASOP onwards. As I said, ASOP was a really fucking good old-school record. But the people of R2R-CC never asked for it. They liked an In Flames where Anders screamed his lungs out, and the music was fast, agressive, yet commercial. ASOP is extremely non-commercial, with the exception of Alias. It is really hard to show down on the throats of radios. The guitars are really cool, but where are the catchyness of "if iii eeeveeer, if iii neeeeveeeer" ?

Then they started to play rock music, which sealed it. But it's okay, "no king rules forever", plus even before the R2R-CC era, they could not have known that they will be this popular. Especially with R2R and CC. If you actually KNOW before their release that those records will be commercially successful, then you should do lottery. Even if you accuse them of trying to copy the hip American metal elements, just compare anything from CC to stuff like Breaking Benjamin or Linkin Park. Not exactly target audience.

Personally, I am happy that they sticked with their guns even when they were at the top. It is easy to say that you change your music because you always want to play something a little different when you are just some C or B level artist. But when you hit the jackpot, that is when you have to put your money where your mouth is. And they did. And I can respect that. That is integrity.

 

[Jester Slave]

No. That's not how it works.

You can keep typing it down, but it is still how it works. You sign a paper, they handle your distribution, and they get a cut from the sales (+ possibly a signing fee), but you keep all the money from the shows.

This is how a professional, non-praying deal looks like with a record label.

 

[miniroch]

No. That's not how it works.

Lol no. Apple is selling hihgly overpriced products.

The secret ingredient was a good start. First iPhone was way ahead of anything else (N95, BlackBerry, SE W910 being competitors) with a reasonable price. It went downhill (and still is), sure, but first couple of iPhones were just enough.

 

[eochaid]

I don't think fan appreciation has much to do with being super popular or not. If they like the music, they buy it, and go to their shows

Lol. You're proof of this.

 

[DE4life]

Does that means Apple owes their money to their fans?
Or was it iPhone + marketing + PR + great decisions making + proper moment of releasing it, etc.?

Because what you say, is not how business works. Not at all. They made their fans, doing great music. Apple made their fans, doing great tech. Miley Cyrus probably made her fans showing tits on stage.
Sure, they wouldn't exist without their fans, but they literally made them. It's same process for each company and I still don't believe that any old Nokia fan should expect any respect as their boots fan. IF lost most of their old fans, so why should they care so much about them? Business-wise they should take care of the new ones, who enjoy SC, Battles, and will enjoy ITM. And they will do that and they will have their own festival, whiskey brand, posters, stickers and glowing snickers. Simply because they know how it runs.

Therein lies the rub though - In Flames refute the idea that they are a business or a brand, but you're defending it from that perspective. So are you saying they are outright lying (an obvious sign of disrespect), or have you got it wrong?

But when you hit the jackpot, that is when you have to put your money where your mouth is. And they did. And I can respect that. That is integrity.

Integrity is not what comes to mind with IF for me. I wouldn't go as far as to say sellout, but I think they purposefully strayed far from their musical roots to try and reach a mass audience in the States. I'm including Jesper in that, by the way. I understand their reasons behind doing so, but I wouldn't call it honourable either. Smart? Yeah, sure. They are smart guys. They got people to buy albums where half or even more of the vocals are cleans from a guy who can't sing. There's some intelligence gone into that, so you gotta respect them for that if nothing else.

 

[eochaid]

You can keep typing it down, but it is still how it works. You sign a paper, they handle your distribution, and they get a cut from the sales (+ possibly a signing fee), but you keep all the money from the shows.

This is how a professional, non-praying deal looks like with a record label.

Lol no. First. They pay the studio, the producer, the engineers. The concept art. The distribution. The advertising. They contact the media and make contracts so that you can appear on radio and tv.

Then, in the most of the situations, they advance money for the tour. Because the tour is linked to the sales of the album.

And if you think that they take avaerything that it's being paid in a show for themselves then you're naive.

 

[eochaid]

The secret ingredient was a good start. First iPhone was way ahead of anything else (N95, BlackBerry, SE W910 being competitors) with a reasonable price. It went downhill (and still is), sure, but first couple of iPhones were just enough.

Apple is not only iphones. And their prices have always been high. Apple prices.

 

[Jester Slave]

Lol. You're proof of this.

Yes, because I am going to their shows and I am showing their music to my friends, aka networking. That is how a band gets rich and popular, and this is how it always worked. It's just a much faster process in the digital age.

Integrity is not what comes to mind with IF for me. I wouldn't go as far as to say sellout, but I think they purposefully strayed far from their musical roots to try and reach a mass audience in the States. I'm including Jesper in that, by the way. I understand their reasons behind doing so, but I wouldn't call it honourable either. Smart? Yeah, sure. They are smart guys. They got people to buy albums where half or even more of the vocals are cleans from a guy who can't sing. There's some intelligence gone into that, so you gotta respect them for that if nothing else.

Lack of integrity would need something the band sworn upon. If they were to publicly state that we are in flames, an MDM band and we will stay that forever, fuck yes, and then a few years later they release R2R, that would have been interesting.

They surely tried to implement some elements which were commercial, but when you listen through those three records, even STYE, you can't say with a clear conscience that yup, this is 100% sellout. They made their music more accessible, but didn't compromise too much. Take a look at Battles for example, which is a good counter-example.

Lol no. First. They pay the studio, the producer, the engineers. The concept art. The distribution. The advertising. They contact the media and make contracts so that you can appear on radio and tv.

Then, in the most of the situations, they advance money for the tour. Because the tour is linked to the sales of the album.

And if you think that they take avaerything that it's being paid in a show for themselves then you're naive.

And which band doesn't pay their engineers or artists??? Also, it has nothing to do with the record label...

The record label has two jobs: marketing and distributing records.

And yes, they keep the money from the shows. They pay the lighting guy, the sound guy, the guy who drives their bus, etc, but after all that, the money is theirs, and Nuclear Blast doesn't get a dime from that. But they should get a cut from their CDs and possibly their merch.

Why on earth would you pay your record label money for your live shows, when they have nothing to do with them? A band has a manager who handles live shows, so you pay your managers to talk with them.

 

[krofius]

Fact is Slave, whether you accept it or not, there are a lot of fans who feel or have felt like IF disrespected them with their words and decisions post-2000. That's why there are hardly any proper older fans left, and there is so much spite towards them online, way more than any other comparable band from that era and genre. IMO it's also part of the reasons their popularity nosedived after Come Clarity, but the overall quality of records like ASOP and SC also played a big part in that.

I personally don't feel disrespected as I only started buying their stuff after they started breaking away from the undergroud, I wasn't one of those guys buying their albums when they had just released Lunar Strain, TJR or Whoracle. By the time I really started getting into the band they were already getting shit on for Clayman and then even more with Reroute. That said, I do understand why people would feel like IF gave them a middle finger after they helped support them. They basically did.

Popularity nosedived? On what parallel universe did you find that metric? Quality of records we can speak about, but they haven't lost popularity in the slightest lol, only increased

 

[miniroch]

Therein lies the rub though - In Flames refute the idea that they are a business or a brand, but you're defending it from that perspective. So are you saying they are outright lying (an obvious sign of disrespect), or have you got it wrong?

I might be missing some pages before, but how can you refuse the idea of having a business, while making money?
You have indie game developers, who might say they love making games and that it does not feel like work, but it's not exactly a charity, is it? It is business. It is a brand. There is a reason they are releasing a record via Nuclear Blast and not with demonetized Youtube.
They might not want to be treated as a brand, but you can never fully separate. It's not like they have their musical twins which are brandless.

Apple is not only iphones. And their prices have always been high. Apple prices.

It is their main product, it is making the most money, it wasn't overpriced while released (500 and 600 $ on release, compared to N95 800$). I think the big gap started happening somewhere near iPhone 5, but I haven't been following on Apple products for quite a while.

 

[eochaid]

Yes, because I am going to their shows

One show slave.

and I am showing their music to my friends, aka networking. That is how a band gets rich and popular, and this is how it always worked. It's just a much faster process in the digital age.

So fans do matter. Thanks for proving our point.

And which band doesn't pay their engineers or artists??? Also, it has nothing to do with the record label...

As I said, go take some sleep. I was talking about the record label. All that I said is done by the record labels. Only distribution... Lol. You know nothing about the music business.

 

[eochaid]

It is their main product, it is making the most money, it wasn't overpriced while released (500 and 600 $ on release, compared to N95 800$). I think the big gap started happening somewhere near iPhone 5, but I haven't been following on Apple products for quite a while.

Now it is. Maybe you think that 500$ is not overpriced. I think it is highly overpriced.

 

[eochaid]

Popularity nosedived? On what parallel universe did you find that metric? Quality of records we can speak about, but they haven't lost popularity in the slightest lol, only increased

This is why their sales have been droping of. Because they're becoming more and more popular.

 

[DE4life]

Yes, because I am going to their shows and I am showing their music to my friends, aka networking. That is how a band gets rich and popular, and this is how it always worked. It's just a much faster process in the digital age.

Lack of integrity would need something the band sworn upon. If they were to publicly state that we are in flames, an MDM band and we will stay that forever, fuck yes, and then a few years later they release R2R, that would have been interesting.

They surely tried to implement some elements which were commercial, but when you listen through those three records, even STYE, you can't say with a clear conscience that yup, this is 100% sellout. They made their music more accessible, but didn't compromise too much. Take a look at Battles for example, which is a good counter-example.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I personally have never called them sellouts. I do think their steadfast refusal to admit to moving onto more commercial tracks is quite disingenuous though. To me that's a sign of disrespect, when you're not telling the truth about something that is really obvious. It's treating the fans like idiots.

I might be missing some pages before, but how can you refuse the idea of having a business, while making money?
You have indie game developers, who might say they love making games and that it does not feel like work, but it's not exactly a charity, is it? It is business. It is a brand. There is a reason they are releasing a record via Nuclear Blast and not with demonetized Youtube.
They might not want to be treated as a brand, but you can never fully separate. It's not like they have their musical twins which are brandless.

Yep, it is a business and has been since Reroute. Maybe even Colony/Clayman. The band have always denied this though. Do you not think such clear lying and treating the fans like idiots with such comments is a bit disrespectful?

 

[DE4life]

Popularity nosedived? On what parallel universe did you find that metric? Quality of records we can speak about, but they haven't lost popularity in the slightest lol, only increased

Yeah, I guess that's why Sony dumped them after only one album. Didn't want that high flying band on their label!

 

[miniroch]

Now it is. Maybe you think that 500$ is not overpriced. I think it is highly overpriced.

Depends on your definition of overpriced, then. If it was cheaper or even similarly priced as it's main rivals, I say it wasn't. Of course it could be 10$, because of small chinese hands being forced to do it, but you are paying for years of experience of the guys who made it possible. And still, it was affordable for so many in USA, that it just became super popular. So not really overpriced. Reasonable and affordable, that's my term.

Of course it's so much different now, but it's not like they are really making new fans with this policy.

 

[miniroch]

Yep, it is a business and has been since Reroute. Maybe even Colony/Clayman. The band have always denied this though. Do you not think such clear lying and treating the fans like idiots with such comments is a bit disrespectful?

I was never into this disrespect to fans discussion in the first place
But no, I don't think they are trying to make fans an idiots (still, I'd like to see this denial of business you are referring to, as I said, I probably missed some pages after Slave's post being too long for my taste). It's not like they are literally trying to tell they are not making money out of it. To me it's more of this indie game dev example. They are having fun of it, they love seeing their fans, not because of their money, but probably due to the feeeling of making the dream come true, becoming the superstars. And they do not want to be treated as a money making brand. And it is reasonable to me. And still, they won't abandon it, because in the end it makes money. And allows them to go on.

I don't feel they did anything bad to me or treated me wrong. Especially when nowadays the interviews are not entirely theirs, because they have to follow PR guidelines and Anders cannot really longer talk about "the machine" like he did in 96.

 

[galvanized]

Do you envy him? Being interrogated by the same stupid questions since Reroute?

They deserve it. They continue to play old songs and their reputation is based on being godly Guitar Heroes. Would they be a Guitar Hero based on their Come Clarity work? Absolutely not. Good album, good composition, but not Guitar Hero level. If they don’t want to be associated with old music then draw the line and stop playing it. But as long as they are playing it, maintaining their metal reputation and foundation, and benefiting from it they absolutely should expect to hear these questions. They are literally teasing old fans and reminding them of their favorite music every single night they tour.