Magic: The Gathering (aka the Dork thread)

[The Butt]

I'm talking about the game as a whole, not the shitty, degenerate format that is Vintage.

Anybody that denies power creep exists when creatures like this do, is a fucking idiot.

 

[Mort Divine]

Titans and Baneslayer do not a good argument make. Primeval Titan is a beast yes, but do any of those creatures have pro-white? I present to you "Path To Exile" whalah problem solved. For christ sakes a well placed mana leak will take care of all of those excempting the Terra Stomper and who is going to play a Terra Stomper anyway. Sure 8/8 trample uncounterable for 6 is nice but a fucking TERROR takes care of him, and TERROR can barely do anything nowadays with Doomblade taking over the 2-drop black removal scene. and everthing he listed is SO weak to Unmake its not even funny

his response

he doesn't mean to come off as a doucher tho if he is, so apologies if he does

 

[Too Many Chiefs]

I signed up so I wouldn't have to talk through Mort as he is GROSSLY MISREPRESENTING MY ARGUMENTS >:U

In anycase, I'm not trying to antagonistic, I just RAGE SO HARD when people say kinda "oldfag" type things and if I came off overreacting a bit I kinda was, so I apologize for that.

 

[The Butt]

No, it's okay, I can sense your tone, you don't sound condescending at all.

However, with all due respect, you're still wrong. Taking baselines of acceptable power level into account, there has been an unnecessary spike in the power level of creatures, which has led to the game, even in casual, being sped up to the point of ending in 4-5 turns due to BIG CREATURES BEATING FACE WOOOARRRGH.

I mean, compare Serra Angel (which actually was ZOMG UBERPOWER at one point... and if you don't believe me, that's why they removed it from Sixth Edition) to Baneslayer. Admittedly, Serra isn't played in constructed anymore like it used to be back in the 90s, but it was at the very least balanced. It was a well-designed card.

Then, enter 2009. IN COMES BANESLAYER, completely obsoleting it. Awesome design practices, WotC.

Also using "it dies to removal" isn't really a good argument. Every creature dies to removal. That's the equivalent of saying "Black Lotus, the Moxen, every other card on the Banned/Restricted list isn't broken, because countermagic exists". Yes, countermagic exists. That doesn't make those cards not broken though.
__________________________

I can blatantly see power creep exists, just from quick glances at the blue creatures even. One of blue's things was that it's creatures weren't supposed to be as powerful as the other colors. Cause it's blue, blue deals with spells. Blue's creatures were supposed to be, for the most part, not as efficient as the other colors. Looking at these, however, I'm seeing creatures with P/T equal to or greater than their converted mana costs, PLUS 2-3 great abilities each. Every color is getting creatures that are unnecessarily over the curve and this is a problem.

Power creep kills games. It's what killed Yu-Gi-Oh, and if WotC doesn't smarten up, it's what will kill Magic as well.

 

[Too Many Chiefs]

Honestly once you got into the nitty-gritty right there.. I agree.

Not a complete reversal of my point of view but now that I see where you're coming from its a lot easier to get behind you on this.

Still, things like Stormtide Leviathan

I would never ever use that in a blue deck. Regardless of the way they print the creatures, as you just aptly noted, that's not how blue plays. At all. Anyone who isn't completely new at the game would notice that and never draft it, and certainly almost never see it in constructed. Its a waste of a card considering how many other cards there are, even in standard, that fit the Mono Blue archetype better for a lot less mana.

I think they are printing stuff like that to get people into the game, I mean christ the card shop in my downtown just closed. They stole ideas from the WoW TCG and anywhere else they can get ideas just to breath life into what could be looking like a dying game in the first place. It caters to casuals, which is a market they didn't have a big hold on ever.

Not really defending stuff like the Titans, again noting Primeval Titan. Absolutely godamn crazy. But just how I see it.

 

[The Butt]

Even in the current creature-dominated, BEAT FACE state of Standard, I would never use that Leviathan* for the sole reason that despite it being amazing and above the power curve, even in blue it is overshadowed by even MORE overpowered creatures, such as the Sphinx, Frost Titan... as well as planeswalkers like the utterly broken, mistake-of-a-card Jace the Mind Sculptor.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen a planeswalker that doesn't piss all over the power curve either, except for select ones.

In all honesty, I'm not even saying all this to be an oldfag either... as I said, sets 4-5 years ago even, were amazingly designed. Time Spiral? One of my favorite blocks of modern Magic. Ravnica? Great also. Mirrodin was a bit of a fuck-up (emergency bannings in STANDARD are a clear sign that things are wrong), but it was just a small blip in the radar. It's only since Lorwyn, Shards of Alara, etc came to be, where WotC has been pushing creatures so hard, that all this unnecessary power creep has been happening.

* Except in draft... In limited, hell yeah I'd pick that if I cracked it open. It may be vulnerable to removal, but it's a really efficient creature for its mana cost, and is still a threat that must be responded to.

Edit: Basically my bottom line with this whole thing, is that even if these creatures don't warp Standard (Arguably planeswalkers do though)... they're still bad for the game as a whole, because of perfectly good creatures no longer being "good". Like, where is it supposed to end?

 

[Too Many Chiefs]

I've been moving my way backwards through sets for combos and fun plays and have been liking the cards I find a lot more than any beefed up varients thereof in recent printings. My friend and I that started the OCTGN playing in our circle of friends really tend to dislike use of cards past Lorwyn block just because Alara has leanings towards certain power curves/mana types (I'm looking at you, Jund and Naya, you crapsacks)that really don't make the game any fun to play. It got to the point where I could call out my friends plays when we were doing a limited game in Alara block.

As for the Planeswalkers? Yes, most of them are completely game changingly broken if unattended. I mean a well placed Aether Snap or Vampire Hexmage could take care of one for a moment, but as a test for the Standard decks I've been building for possible play, my friend cooked up a super control UW deck in standard that pulls out planeswalkers and just eats you alive. Even non-standard decks going up against it fall kind of flat, moving so sharply uphill power-wise, because of the Planeswalkers involved in it. Printing up Planeswalkers I am starting to think was a huge mistake, I mean just make a damn Legend with cool powers like that, you don't need another card type with a different rule set (opted from the WoW TCG no less). If Planeswalkers had been made as an alternate casual gametype like Archenemy or Planechase then that would've been much cooler and preserved a lot of stability in the main game.


Quick question, semi-unrelated, dunno if you're a lorefag like I am starting to become or not, but do you feel like the older sets also benefited from a more consistent flavor due to the long-spanning and hugely interconnected lore and stories?

 

[The Butt]

I've been moving my way backwards through sets for combos and fun plays and have been liking the cards I find a lot more than any beefed up varients thereof in recent printings. My friend and I that started the OCTGN playing in our circle of friends really tend to dislike use of cards past Lorwyn block just because Alara has leanings towards certain power curves/mana types (I'm looking at you, Jund and Naya, you crapsacks)that really don't make the game any fun to play. It got to the point where I could call out my friends plays when we were doing a limited game in Alara block.

As for the Planeswalkers? Yes, most of them are completely game changingly broken if unattended. I mean a well placed Aether Snap or Vampire Hexmage could take care of one for a moment, but as a test for the Standard decks I've been building for possible play, my friend cooked up a super control UW deck in standard that pulls out planeswalkers and just eats you alive. Even non-standard decks going up against it fall kind of flat, moving so sharply uphill power-wise, because of the Planeswalkers involved in it. Printing up Planeswalkers I am starting to think was a huge mistake, I mean just make a damn Legend with cool powers like that, you don't need another card type with a different rule set (opted from the WoW TCG no less). If Planeswalkers had been made as an alternate casual gametype like Archenemy or Planechase then that would've been much cooler and preserved a lot of stability in the main game.

I agree entirely with all of this.

Quick question, semi-unrelated, dunno if you're a lorefag like I am starting to become or not, but do you feel like the older sets also benefited from a more consistent flavor due to the long-spanning and hugely interconnected lore and stories?

Oddly enough, I love the flavor of older cards, but I never really paid much attention to the storyline itself, except for maybe the Time Spiral block, where I read the three novels front to back. I mean, I knew the barebones basics of some of the stories, such as "Jeska dies, Patriarch resurrects her as Phage, Phage kills Ixidor's wife, Ixidor rages and creates Akroma" in the Onslaught block, but that's about it.

To be honest, I paid a lot more attention to just the art and flavor text, which I feel was even better than the past couple blocks (I connect the most with the art, as visual art is a big part of my life... going to college next year for graphic design, and I derive a lot of enjoyment in sketching/painting).

 

[Too Many Chiefs]

I was, up until recently, going to be attending art school which is why I got back into Magic actually, since my first introduction (which was Mirrodin block coincidentally)I've always loved the art on the cards and wanted to do some myself. Kinda backtracked on that but I still draw as a hobby so maybe eventually?

Was just curious as I was chatting with my brother about the flavor/lore, since he didn't even know it was all planned out so I had to explain to him that yes they actually have a story for each block. He actually ended up buying me a compilation and gave it to me, Artifact Cycle Series 1. Can't wait to read it.

Also damnit now I'm bickering with my friend about this same thing we're talking about.

Do you have Skype, want to get in on this?

 

[The Butt]

I have Skype, but I was actually just about to call 'er a night. Feel free to add me though (mustard.tiger), as well as whoever else on UM wishes to add me on the ol' Skype too.

Cheers!

 

[Caecius]

Holy shit did you just post Warpath Ghoul as a power card.

That card is barely, barely playable in limited let alone any other format.

 

[waif]

wtf are you talking about.

Although compared with other colors...trained armodon has existed for a while.
Haven't played in a long time, but that Stormtide Leviathan strikes me as a pretty badass endgame for a control deck, as it fully shuts down the opponent's critters and you basically just have to keep it alive by countering their removal. Although as I recall blue has gotten kinda raped in terms of countermagic lately so maybe that wouldn't work.
Man, I miss Onslaught-block standard. Good fucking times.

 

[cookiecutter]

I've been playing on and off for over a decade and I am also annoyed when people say the old sets were better. I'm pretty sure that the designers have been pushing creature power and reducing other cards power because it was unbalanced before. A lot of old creatures are unplayable now, but that's because they were so much weaker than the spells. I can see how they might be going too far, but I have yet to really dislike a new set.

 

[Caecius]

wtf are you talking about.

The Butt, listing power creature cards, complaining about power creep.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

anyone ever played World of Darkness?
Fun as shit!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Darkness

 

[The Butt]

Holy shit did you just post Warpath Ghoul as a power card.

That card is barely, barely playable in limited let alone any other format.

No, I did not claim Warpath Ghoul is "power". I did, however, say that it is a clear case of power creep, which is an example of sloppy design pracice, and as a result, bad for the game as a whole.

No, it's not warping any formats but it illustrates that power creep is okay, which it most certainly is not.

Also, I'd use Warpath Ghoul in limited. Definitely not first-pick, but I'd use it. It's a threat that must be answered to, which always helps.

I've been playing on and off for over a decade and I am also annoyed when people say the old sets were better. I'm pretty sure that the designers have been pushing creature power and reducing other cards power because it was unbalanced before.

It wasn't.

And I get annoyed too, when people claim it's worse, without valid justification. But, I've examined the past 3-4 blocks enough to know that I do have valid justification. As I said, I'm not saying this shit to be an oldfag, I'm saying this shit because WotC is not infallible; they've made mistakes before, and I feel they're making large mistakes currently.

A lot of old creatures are unplayable now, but that's because they were so much weaker than the spells. I can see how they might be going too far, but I have yet to really dislike a new set.

What's wrong with having some creatures be weaker than spells? Not every creature should be the peak of efficiency.

Also obsoleting older cards is bad in every case, and there is nothing good or defensible about it. There was absolutely nothing wrong with Scathe Zombies. I mean, it wasn't a STELLAR creature, but

A) Black was NEVER supposed to get creatures as good as green does.
B) If every creature was a stellar creature, then that'd take an important strategy/learning aspect out of the game.

I have a feeling that the people defending Warpath Ghoul as "okay" have no clue what either the color pie, or the power curve, stand for, and why they are important.

 

[waif]

I've been playing on and off for over a decade and I am also annoyed when people say the old sets were better. I'm pretty sure that the designers have been pushing creature power and reducing other cards power because it was unbalanced before. A lot of old creatures are unplayable now, but that's because they were so much weaker than the spells. I can see how they might be going too far, but I have yet to really dislike a new set.

It's just a fundamental shift in balance from spells towards creatures...I just think that spells are more elegant than creatures, and have more interesting combos and stuff, so tbh not a huge fan of the shift.

The Butt, listing power creature cards, complaining about power creep.

I mean wtf do you mean it's not playable. I mean, I can't see using it in a constructed deck because with black I tend towards either suicide black or control decks and it's not really useful for either of those, but in terms of cost-for-power it's fairly efficient (although hardly mindblowing and not worth complaining about) and certainly quite usable.

 

[Caecius]

In limited draft, where it was only viable, it was a vanilla creature and traded with worse creatures and easily outclassed by other creatures in that color. The two and three drops for black were much better.

Two-Mana Creatures

Child of Night (2/1 lifelink)
Black Knight (2/2 First Strike, Pro White)

Three-Mana Creatures

Dread Warlock (2/2 Fear)
Kalinore Bats (2/1 Flying)
Looming Shade (1/1 B:+1/+1)
Vampire Aristocrat (2/2 Sac Creature: +2/+2)

In conclusion, there are better creatures at that slot and you would rather be casting other spells than a vanilla 3/2 creature on turn 3.

 

[The Butt]

In limited though, you're not guaranteed those cards at all. And even if I do pull a good chunk of them, I'd run it anyways.

As I said, it's an (efficient) threat that must be answered to. Either they waste a spell on it, or you take down one of their creatures of equal or lesser power.

Every little bit helps.

 

[Caecius]

Actually, if you are a good drafter, you will have better cards than Warpath Ghoul. Which isn't hard...

Also, if someone wastes a removals spell on Warpath Ghoul, you are playing with noobs, as Warpath Ghoul trades with all the low-end creatures in the format.