Memorial Day is a Joke and so is your Face

[The Ozzman]

Nice to see J. back..

 

[Der Morgenstern]

Rick, you have a lot of maturing to do still.

 

[MotherEel]

Why does not society thank them by avoiding all future opportunities of losing soldiers to death..?

 

[Satanstoenail]

My face is no joke.

 

[sevag00]

Rick, you have a lot of maturing to do still.

Seriously. You're like 25 or older and you think and behave like a 10 year old. I don't know if you're doing it on purpose.

 

[Dak]

Richard could have expressed the sentiment in a more mature manner, but that doesn't take anything away from it. I guess this sort of approach is popular in Rogan-land.

Veterans of the drafts of yesteryear, whether they survived or not, deserve our sympathy. The last overt form of slavery was certainly the most cruel. Gladiator slaves seized from all walks of life by their countrymen and forced to fight for their life under promises of future freedom, to the profit of the their masters.

As correctly noted by others, while their is no honor for the draftee, there is even less for the volunteer. They have their "due" in material abundance, nevermind the ethical questions about their corporate nature (and I do not mean corporate in the purely business sense, although that plays a part).

 

[Mort Divine]

Someone worded it really well in a thread on Pat Tillman over on another site I go to

"Overbearing soldier worship is pretty much just a political trick to keep up the war machine. It's been a long, long time since our "freedom" was under legitimate threat from a foreign entity. Our freedoms aren't threatened by impoverished Afghani goat farmers who moonlighting as Taliban soldiers, and they weren't threatened by Saddamn "Never actually had WMDs" Hussein.

Pat Tillman didn't deserve to be shot down by his own guys in some desert in a perpetual wasteland, but the propaganda can never rest so there will always be sacrificial lambs fighting for private investments of millionaires and billionaires."

 

[rms]

I'd thank people who were drafted and forced into the millitary, but yeah, I dont give a fuck about the people who chose to serve.

That's ridiculous but it's hard to get upset because i'm sure you were born in '96 and have no idea of anything and probably some rich ass white kid in Long Beach.

I certainly do not want any of our soldiers to die in combat. But if they do, people need to look at reality. This poor dude blown up by a roadside bomb didn't die protecting my freedom. He died fighting for old white guys who sent him to a foreign country to fight the "bad guys", or as they are commonly called nowadays, "terrorists" (SEE: people who have different principles than Americans).

Also, keep in mind they are being paid. They get free education after serving, not to mention VA benefits, pensions, housing help, health benefits. Corporations like hiring them because they are a tax break over the regular joes.

I hope they all come back, but don't expect me to kiss their ass.

You will not see a vet asking to kiss their ass, and if they do they are a faggot who probably wasn't allowed to re-enlist because he was a douche. You do not have to do anything for memorial or veteran's day.

You can define any war as 'old white guys sending the poor to fight the bad guys' because that is basically true, but i'm not going to say these wars are justified or right and personally am against them.

Now don't even act like we are taken care of or have a lopsided effect after getting out..if you think it's so great being a 25 year old vet starting his freshmen year in college then hot damn turn back the wheels of time and go back and join yourself man. We are definitely the best era of vets comparing to all others, but it's not like i'm guaranteed an easy life from here on out.

Why does not society thank them by avoiding all future opportunities of losing soldiers to death..?

Well that is the industrial military complex that America is a part of, and maybe it'll change one day but who knows.

Richard could have expressed the sentiment in a more mature manner, but that doesn't take anything away from it. I guess this sort of approach is popular in Rogan-land.

Veterans of the drafts of yesteryear, whether they survived or not, deserve our sympathy. The last overt form of slavery was certainly the most cruel. Gladiator slaves seized from all walks of life by their countrymen and forced to fight for their life under promises of future freedom, to the profit of the their masters.

As correctly noted by others, while their is no honor for the draftee, there is even less for the volunteer. They have their "due" in material abundance, nevermind the ethical questions about their corporate nature (and I do not mean corporate in the purely business sense, although that plays a part).

No honor in enlisting for your country? Risking your life for whatever beliefs you choose in? That is something I cannot agree with.

Someone worded it really well in a thread on Pat Tillman over on another site I go to

"Overbearing soldier worship is pretty much just a political trick to keep up the war machine. It's been a long, long time since our "freedom" was under legitimate threat from a foreign entity. Our freedoms aren't threatened by impoverished Afghani goat farmers who moonlighting as Taliban soldiers, and they weren't threatened by Saddamn "Never actually had WMDs" Hussein.

Pat Tillman didn't deserve to be shot down by his own guys in some desert in a perpetual wasteland, but the propaganda can never rest so there will always be sacrificial lambs fighting for private investments of millionaires and billionaires."

I don't think Soldier Worship is any way attributed to a war machine, fear mongering of the uneducated is probably the most significant. Fighting ideas/small organizations are stupid and quite obvious now so why beat a dead horse?

Sacrificial lambs are the poor of this country that most of you are lucky enough to not be apart of, who have had to make these choices to better their life. Think about that the next time this 'issue' comes up

 

[monoxide_child]

first
i agree with King Richard
the way he phrased things sounded like an impersonation of Chrome Heart, but i understood what he was trying to say and i agree with it

second
i have tons of respect for the people that were drafted
and it's connected to the fact that i have so little respect for the people that joined voluntarily

the people that fucking choose to go into a goddammed war voluntarily scare the fucking hell out of me

third
at the end of the day i have a whole hell of a lot more respect for Lynndie England than i do for Jessica Lynch

neither one of them turned 17 untill after 9-11, so they both new a mutherfucking war was going on when they joined the fucking military,

so the only words comming out of jessica's mouth should have been bitching about how nobody even tried to rescue the injured but still alive males that were right fucking next to her when she got rescued (males who subsequently died because the rescuers were too busy tring to rescue the only female in miles in any direction)

and Lynndie England being blamed for Abu Ghraib when she was the only fucking female for miles in any direction, that was just mysoginistic, and calling her "Jessica's Evil Twin" was just promoting the goddamm war

 

[Matt]

There is honor in volunteering for military service. Even with the benefits of joining, enlisted soldiers make less than their private sector counterparts and face significantly more danger on average, regardless of occupation. They also have to relocate every 2-3 years and deploy to active war zones/hostile environments. Yes, people know the risks of joining, but to say there is no honor/sacrifice in it is a cynical and foolish view. To those who haven't served, if its such a grand and easy life, why aren't you jumping to join up?

However, nobody (solider or otherwise) should be begging for attention at any time. A day to remember dead soldiers is something I'm ok with though.

 

[Dak]

Now don't even act like we are taken care of or have a lopsided effect after getting out

Your mileage may vary greatly when you get out, but that's not because resources aren't made abundantly available for most. The biggest problem is the lack of funds available for those most desperate for them, thanks to all those getting out and sopping up benefits with less serious issues. It's up to the veteran to make the minimum effort to network and contact the various federal, state, and private entities that provide support.

No honor in enlisting for your country? Risking your life for whatever beliefs you choose in? That is something I cannot agree with.

No honor in killing people just because. There are no grand values defended by the military forays of America's history, and most certainly not "life and liberty".

There is honor in volunteering for military service. Even with the benefits of joining, enlisted soldiers make less than their private sector counterparts and face significantly more danger on average, regardless of occupation. They also have to relocate every 2-3 years and deploy to active war zones/hostile environments. Yes, people know the risks of joining, but to say there is no honor/sacrifice in it is a cynical and foolish view. To those who haven't served, if its such a grand and easy life, why aren't you jumping to join up?

Oh look, the "mature" equivalent of "if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?". The "unequal pay" point is grossly outdated. Within 4 years in the military, my total compensation was over $45k per year, and I had a month of paid vacation starting from my first year. How many jobs offer a month of paid vacation after even ten years? Nevermind all the federal holidays. How many 22 year olds with only a high school education bare making that kind of money, mostly working bankers hours?

The infantry/combat portion of the military is relatively small. All this stuff about not being paid enough to live in foxholes is based on a fraction of the total military, and they do get additional hazardous duty pay, and all their pay in those areas is tax free. And of course we could revisit the horrible nature of what they are getting paid for anyway. Killing innocent or equally dishonorable people for money. There's little to no difference between the volunteer military and plain old mercenaries. Killers for hire.

However, nobody (solider or otherwise) should be begging for attention at any time. A day to remember dead soldiers is something I'm ok with though.

Only as it is remembering the pointlessly wasted life, not glorifying their deaths.

 

[monoxide_child]

There is honor in volunteering for military service. Even with the benefits of joining, enlisted soldiers make less than their private sector counterparts and face significantly more danger on average, regardless of occupation. They also have to relocate every 2-3 years and deploy to active war zones/hostile environments. Yes, people know the risks of joining, but to say there is no honor/sacrifice in it is a cynical and foolish view. To those who haven't served, if its such a grand and easy life, why aren't you jumping to join up?

However, nobody (solider or otherwise) should be begging for attention at any time. A day to remember dead soldiers is something I'm ok with though.

so
you just described the reasons not to join, and you think the dumbasses who choose to join should be praised??

seriously??

there's a difference between "honor" and "sacrifice"
i honor Bill Clinton
the whole fucking world was having various different wars going on durring Clinton's administration, but NONE of those wars involved any American death at all whatsoever
because Clinton just flat-out said "it's not america's problem"
because it wasn't

America recieves oil from every single country on the planet that pumps oil, including every oil rig that's in water everywhere on the globe, ontop of the oil we pump ourselves, we've got access to enough oil that we could just flat-out say
"we're not recieving oil from any Muslim Countries anymore" and then we could completeley totally fucking leave the middle-east and let the 12-sided war go on without us

which is what would have happened if Al Gore had won the 2000 election, which was stolen, the whole electoral college system is fucked up all to hell

if every single vote had simply counted as 1 vote, Al Gore would have won by the biggest landslide in history

why did the republican party go through the effort of stealing that election?? to go to war

on 9-11 we were attacked by airplanes
our response to that should have been just bombs dropped from airplanes

quid-pro-quo
tit-for-tat
an eye for an eye

from airplanes

seriously
the moment ground troops arived on the ground in the middle-east, that momment was a mistake, the moment it became possible for American soldiers to get killed was a mistake

no one in america fucking remembers that there was a "12-sided war" going on in the middle-east the day before 9-11

the gas price jump after 9-11 was the direct result of people trying to make the gas price jump and they used "the war on terrorism" to do it

so no, i don't "honor the veterans"

 

[Einherjar86]

No honor in killing people just because. There are no grand values defended by the military forays of America's history, and most certainly not "life and liberty".

The catch-22 with this idea is that we also can't condemn the individuals themselves for what they do. "Killing people just because" sounds a hell of a lot like murder; and some might argue that it is. But we can't prosecute or criticize soldiers for the people they kill, even gratuitously. This is the banality of evil. It doesn't emanate from individuals; it's systematic.

 

[monoxide_child]

The catch-22 with this idea is that we also can't condemn the individuals themselves for what they do. "Killing people just because" sounds a hell of a lot like murder; and some might argue that it is. But we can't prosecute or criticize soldiers for the people they kill, even gratuitously. This is the banality of evil. It doesn't emanate from individuals; it's systematic.

i personnally never said anything like "american soldiers killing = murder"

my whole fucking point in even posting in this thread at all to begin with was to point out that they shouldn't have fucking been there to begin with

our response to 9-11 should have been a quid-pro-quo type thing and the moment ground troops arrived in the middle east, that moment, was a mistake

 

[Einherjar86]

I wasn't talking to you.

 

[monoxide_child]

I wasn't talking to you.

i know

 

[Dak]

The catch-22 with this idea is that we also can't condemn the individuals themselves for what they do. "Killing people just because" sounds a hell of a lot like murder; and some might argue that it is. But we can't prosecute or criticize soldiers for the people they kill, even gratuitously. This is the banality of evil. It doesn't emanate from individuals; it's systematic.

Yet individuals create the system. I do agree to a point though. We cannot necessarily place the exact same sort blame on the Cuban dog soldier as on Che, for example. Each situation is different of course. There are, in fact, a limited number who join the military so they can get the chance to legally kill. Some even list this as a benefit of the military, to give these sorts a "productive outlet". While in general the problem is systemic, in some cases it is no less individual.

 

[Matt]

Oh look, the "mature" equivalent of "if you love it so much, why don't you marry it?". The "unequal pay" point is grossly outdated. Within 4 years in the military, my total compensation was over $45k per year, and I had a month of paid vacation starting from my first year. How many jobs offer a month of paid vacation after even ten years? Nevermind all the federal holidays. How many 22 year olds with only a high school education bare making that kind of money, mostly working bankers hours?

The infantry/combat portion of the military is relatively small. All this stuff about not being paid enough to live in foxholes is based on a fraction of the total military, and they do get additional hazardous duty pay, and all their pay in those areas is tax free. And of course we could revisit the horrible nature of what they are getting paid for anyway. Killing innocent or equally dishonorable people for money. There's little to no difference between the volunteer military and plain old mercenaries. Killers for hire.


Only as it is remembering the pointlessly wasted life, not glorifying their deaths.

I wasn't aware 45k was considered exorbitant. Shame on you for living such a glamorous lifestyle at the expense of taxpaying Americans while apparently doing nothing to earn it :Smug:

Yes, mils may get more days off, but I believe 2 weeks is the corporate standard, so getting 2 extra weeks off is nice but its not like the military gets a lot more time of compared to the private sector. Also, federal holidays are not guaranteed off days for military personnel either.

45k total compensation for a low-level NCO isn't a lot of money, especially for service members with families. Compared to a private sector manager with the same experience it is much less. Don't forget about the huge costs of relocation that are not reimbursed. Tons of enlisted families are on food stamps and other forms of assistance.

Your argument about the infantry/killing people is irrelevant to this conversation.

 

[rms]

I think this topic is changing discussion now, Ein put my point more intelligently because he is a smarty pants.

 

[Dak]

I wasn't aware 45k was considered exorbitant. Shame on you for living such a glamorous lifestyle at the expense of taxpaying Americans while apparently doing nothing to earn it :Smug:

Yes, mils may get more days off, but I believe 2 weeks is the corporate standard, so getting 2 extra weeks off is nice but its not like the military gets a lot more time of compared to the private sector. Also, federal holidays are not guaranteed off days for military personnel either.

In most cases they are guaranteed holidays. And double the amount of vacation is hardly something to handwave.

As far as compensation, I never suggested that military personnel do not do anything (although the 80-20 rule still generally applies). And yes, one of the reasons I got out was because of coming to these conclusions roughly halfway through my enlistment.

45k isn't "glamourous", but it's comfortable at the current level of inflation, and certainly more than the average:

45k total compensation for a low-level NCO isn't a lot of money, especially for service members with families. Compared to a private sector manager with the same experience it is much less. Don't forget about the huge costs of relocation that are not reimbursed. Tons of enlisted families are on food stamps and other forms of assistance.

#1: It's not less. Rank does not guarantee extra responsibility either, so you can't just go "NCO - Manager". So comparing age and education level for your average high school educated, 4 year E-5 in the military making 45k to the average civilian peer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States

Looks like even those given the benefit of an extra 3 years+ in the labor force are only looking at 32k in income. Let's tack on $5000 to cover the possibility of premium employer health insurance benefits like what is included in military compensation. Still only gets us to 37k, the median still falling short.

#2 You know how military families manage to qualify for many of these assistance programs? Because of the way the military separates all the benefits. Not only is the bar set low for things like WIC, when less than half of your total compensation package is listed as "income", no wonder they can mooch extra money. My wife had an E-7 in charge of her who had his family on food stamps, and kept harassing us to sign up for it because "wouldn't it be nice to have some extra money? Maybe go on some trips/ buy new electronics/etc?" We certainly "qualified". But in reality we didn't need it. Like most of the military on it. Including him. It doesn't matter if you get over 5k per month in cash if only 3k is taxable income. Just like it doesn't matter if a E-5 is taking home 3k if only 1500 is taxable income.

#3. Since when are relocation costs not reimbursed? Having done 3 household moves while in the military, I can assure I was reimbursed each time.

Your argument about the infantry/killing people is irrelevant to this conversation.

Is the nature of services rendered ever irrelevant to payment?