Metal and accessibility

[genocide roach]

Slayer did, didn't they?

only recently. and the more i think of it, it was prolly a bad example. so here is a better one

cannibal corpse. they havnt changed their sound ever! yet they are at the top of the DM scene.
~gR~

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Haha Corpse suck

Slayer was a better example.

Nightwish are getting quite popular. Look into that.

 

[Episteme]

I think it'd be interesting to see metal in the mainstream again as it kinda was in the 80s, as long as an artist does not give up their artistic integrity for the sake of sucking the money cock I think it would be fine. It just seems to be that alot of metal bands do have to give up their integrity in exchange for fame, either that or they have to start off into the mainstream making more accessible sounding music(e.g Metalcore). I don't see it as a bad thing, though I really don't see how bands like Nachtfalke or Nokturnal Mortum would be getting any radio air time soon.

 

[byrne]

Anyone who thinks they attain any particular superiority because they listen to metal or more underground bands is an idiot.

Liking something which is more technical or requires greater competence to create elevates the user to no particular grandeur. If a person dislikes the metal sound, and enjoys a more simplistic 'user friendly noise' and is happy doing so, they are not inferior. They have just found other ways to please themselves. If they listened to the more popularised sound and didnt enjoy it, then perhaps you could look upon them with arrogance and belittle their opinion. But I doubt this is the case with the vast majority

In response to actual topic, metal would be tainted if it became popularised. There is no question in my mind. The free'er metal is from a manufactured sound, the better. Adding elements on large scale, such as record company profits, the dependence of jobs and the requirement of quantity over quality, to me would simply mean more uninspired music. People would simply produce a sound, rather than write music.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

In response to actual topic, metal would be tainted if it became popularised. There is no question in my mind. The free'er metal is from a manufactured sound, the better. Adding elements on large scale, such as record company profits, the dependence of jobs and the requirement of quantity over quality, to me would simply mean more uninspired music. People would simply produce a sound, rather than write music.

That's why people should be educated. Metal music should not suffer in the process of becoming popularized.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Here are a few questions to help us along with this discussion:

1) If metal were made more accessible, could it possibly retain its form, function, and integrity?

2) How could this transition occur?

3) Would it be a good thing if this happened? What benefits could there be? In other words, while we find metal worthwhile, would there be any point in this? Why pander to shallow listeners?

4) Is metal only as worthwhile for us, because it serves such a specific and personalized niche?

5) Doesn't this line of thought lead right back to our elitist tendencies?

I've not read the whole thread yet, but here:

1) a) Metal is more complex than pop music, it isn't going to satisfy the masses because the masses want something simple and fun to dance and sing along to - put simply. To become more accessible a band needs to sacrifice some of the complexity or 'darkness' in their music.
b) Pretty much all black metal, for example, is only going to become accessible in a non-Christian environment, and black metal would be unnecessary in a non-Christian environment. Summoning is perhaps one exception because their music is triumphant/glorious rather than oppositional, and is therefore fitting even after Christianity has been vanquished, hence 'post-BM'.

2) That's basically answered above.

3) Personally, just like I'd rather listen to 1 great band than 50 average ones, I'd rather make my music available to one listener who will 'get' it than 50 listeners who like to mosh to it and tell their friends about it. That one intelligent listener will understand this and therefore won't care about me gaining greater access to the mainstream.

The majority of fans of metal bands these days don't seem to be able to make their minds up - encouraging bands to sell out and then slagging them off when they do so. At the end of the day it's not for them to say either way.

If music doesn't mean anything more to the creator than money and fame, it's not going to be good. Sure, if 5000 people are likely to understand a band's music, that band would like to make their music available to as many of those people as possible, but sacrificing quality is not a way of doing this. This is generally the case for most underground metal bands - they promote themselves enough for the people that matter to hear them, no more.

4) For most people, yes. Anyone who enjoys the 'atmosphere' of Wacken festival, for example, is actually just enjoying that sense of social acceptance and that sense of feeling like you're special because you're unusual. When I went to Wacken it was obvious that most of those 'metalheads' weren't any different from 'regular' people, they just happened to have a taste for heaviness (and alcohol, definitely alcohol). If a person is wearing an Emperor top and spots somebody else doing the same, there's a little understanding expression between them as they catch each other's eye. Metallers all strive for that.

To summarise, I bet there's lots of people here who used to wear Arch Enemy clothing but don't anymore because they know that nowadays metallers (even fans of old Arch Enemy) will look at them and think 'heh, probably just another mallcore kid'. Most 'metalheads' don't want metal to be accessible, and they only say that they do because they don't want to admit that they're one of the above.

5) People go 'OMgoodness, elitists suck!' only because some are linked to National Socialism and other things this Christian society has a kneejerk reaction against. Elitists are just people who don't believe in equality.

 

[DE]

I think that the public just cannot get their heads round our complex and superior genre.

 

[Phrozenspite]

I've heard before in numerous places that anything of worth should be made accessible. This has been specifically stated for literature, mathematics, etc. So, of course, I thought about how this could apply to the extreme forms of metal. I can come to no real conclusion myself.

Here are a few questions to help us along with this discussion:

1) If metal were made more accessible, could it possibly retain its form, function, and integrity?

2) How could this transition occur?

3) Would it be a good thing if this happened? What benefits could there be? In other words, while we find metal worthwhile, would there be any point in this? Why pander to shallow listeners?

4) Is metal only as worthwhile for us, because it serves such a specific and personalized niche?

5) Doesn't this line of thought lead right back to our elitist tendencies?

Great topic for thought,

1. Metal itself can't be made more accessible without sacrificing elements of itself. Perhaps a phenomenon such as what gave AOR and progressive rock a breakthrough would be needed in order for metal to reach a wider audience given the current stigma and stereotypes attached to the genre.

2. I don't see this as possible given that even if a band that has become more "accessible" like in flames or arch enemy were to score a huge hit and gain gold or platinum success that wouldn't turn the focus of the mainstream onto the underground, it would give the major labels a reason to sign a lot of talentless bands that were nothing more than derivative ripoffs.

3. I can see 2 major benefits to metal ever breaking through... those being availibility of albums would increase. And of course a genre that is in demand would lead to huge exposure, I.E TV appearances and large scale concert tours.

4. Absolutely not, it frustrates me personally day and night that others can't understand complex music like metal, or even jazz and classical. The biggest tragedy of all is that some of the amazing stuff that these artists write will never be heard by the majority.

5. Given the underground nature of extreme metal, and the obvious view that the metal genre is superior to other genres... elitism comes naturally, although some tend to wear their "l33t" taste as a badge of honor. I see it more as most people probably get a thrill out of discovering a band that not many people know of.

Could also look at this from the perspective of jazz, which of course had a peak in popularity and than went underground and developed into territory which the mainstream would've never touched. Metal has also expirienced this, but like jazz has yet to and perhaps will never reach the mainstream again. Although jazz didn't have the support of the internet and the various "metal" shows like headbangers ball and uranium...

 

[skeptik]

Anyone who thinks they attain any particular superiority because they listen to metal or more underground bands is an idiot.

Liking something which is more technical or requires greater competence to create elevates the user to no particular grandeur. If a person dislikes the metal sound, and enjoys a more simplistic 'user friendly noise' and is happy doing so, they are not inferior. They have just found other ways to please themselves. If they listened to the more popularised sound and didnt enjoy it, then perhaps you could look upon them with arrogance and belittle their opinion. But I doubt this is the case with the vast majority

In response to actual topic, metal would be tainted if it became popularised. There is no question in my mind. The free'er metal is from a manufactured sound, the better. Adding elements on large scale, such as record company profits, the dependence of jobs and the requirement of quantity over quality, to me would simply mean more uninspired music. People would simply produce a sound, rather than write music.

.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Most metal isn't much better than pop, but there's a few expertly complex releases which are quite clearly superior to all accessible music outside of classical.

3. I can see 2 major benefits to metal ever breaking through... those being availibility of albums would increase. And of course a genre that is in demand would lead to huge exposure, I.E TV appearances and large scale concert tours.

Surely the second part is just the same as saying "one benefit of a band getting exposed to a wider audience is that they're being exposed."? The first issue is a fair point, though.

4. Absolutely not, it frustrates me personally day and night that others can't understand complex music like metal, or even jazz and classical. The biggest tragedy of all is that some of the amazing stuff that these artists write will never be heard by the majority.

I already addressed this. The majority won't be pleased by what you call 'amazing' anywhere near as much as they will be by the latest Justin Timberlake record.

5. Given the underground nature of extreme metal, and the obvious view that the metal genre is superior to other genres... elitism comes naturally, although some tend to wear their "l33t" taste as a badge of honor. I see it more as most people probably get a thrill out of discovering a band that not many people know of.

I see far less of that than is often claimed. Obviously there's a few who get a kick out of being more 'tr00' than others, but at least they mostly seem to be gathered at the Metal Storm board. There's barely anybody here who fits into that description.

 

[Reign in Acai]

I agree 100% with Misfit's post.

A Metal listener is no way superior to a mainstream listener. (The music is, but not the listener) See what some people fail to realize is that some people are quite happy listening to the obie trice's and thursday's of the world. They take whatever the payola weilding indy's are cramming up the radio stations asses to spoonfeed the palette of the masses. And that's fine. I actually embrace the mainstream. It serves such a great purpose for the metal community. Time and time again in the past I have tried to guide my friends into listening to metal. (These are friends who listen to music with a tongue and cheek attitude) If the music is catchy and not annoying to them they love it! They find no artistic value in music and use it for the sole purpose of making the time go by as they drive from destination to the next. I gave up on my attempts of conversion after I realized that they have no business listening to the densely layered artistic bands which plaster the walls of the metal scene. This music is made for certain ears. For those who truly appreciate it! And hopefully it will remain this way for a very long time.

Most mainstream listeners rarely even discuss the music in which they listen to anyhow. Just grab any teeny bop magazine in your bookstore. Check out an interview from (insert generic mainstream drivel band here) and you'll notice that all the questions asked of the band are usually of a more personal nature. Example- "So what's your favorite food".

The mainstream fan is more concerned on who the drummer in the band is dating, as opposed to how technical the guitarist is. Simple music for simple minds. What would happen if these musically inept dullards would permeate the metal scene? Big name labels would catch on and make dozens upon dozens of corporate bred clones that the adolescent mainstream would devour with glee. Shit just turn on mtv. There's so much fellating of metalcore on shows like headbangers ball and uranium that its sickening. Nu-Metal has been replaced by a new entity. This sub genre will die a slow death and be replace by another aggro/angsty/emo genre to fulfill the flavor of the year quota.

If metal went mainstream. It would die a certain a death! All sense of commradery between the fans would be lost as it would be broken by trend whoring fucks who are just listening to the music to fill a void they are missing in their adolescent lives. Metal does become a listener's identity after time. But for all the right reasons. The passion you feel when you put on your favorite artist's music and smile knowing that they're actually musicians out there playing music for all the right reasons! Playing for the love of playing. To Create!!!! Not playing for a scene saturated with pretensious images and dreams of dinards. Let the mainstream have their money magazines and mansions. The music and the music alone is what makes us rich. And to sustain that, artistic integrity can not be compromised.

My 2 cents.

 

[skeptik]

I think a large part of why Metal is underground to begin with is its complexity. Those who listen to mainstream music generally listen to msuci just to hear it, and are not dedicated like Metal fans tend to be. Those who are very dedicated to their music look for more and more complex music that challenges, and is not simply 'a phat beat.' I know from experience that a lot of people that become more and more into music look for more complex music, and many turn to Metal, because those that I've gotten into the genre told me that they like it for the complexity of the music.

 

[no country for old wainds]

The mainstream metal fan is more concerned on how technical the guitarist is than how good the band is at writing music. Simple music for simple minds.

Metal does become a listener's identity after time. But for all the right reasons. The passion you feel when you put on your favorite artist's music and smile knowing that they're actually musicians out there playing music for all the right reasons! Playing for the love of playing. To Create!!!!

You're kidding yourself if you think that's the reason. I appreciate the passion of art without calling myself a metaller/metalhead, or living a 'metal' way of life, or identifying myself as someone who's outcasted from the unenlightened norm because of my musical tastes and has a sense of 'comradery' with other rare, gifted people who feel the same.

 

[Reign in Acai]

I think a large part of why Metal is underground to begin with is its complexity. Those who listen to mainstream music generally listen to msuci just to hear it, and are not dedicated like Metal fans tend to be. Those who are very dedicated to their music look for more and more complex music that challenges, and is not simply 'a phat beat.' I know from experience that a lot of people that become more and more into music look for more complex music, and many turn to Metal, because those that I've gotten into the genre told me that they like it for the complexity of the music.

Yea mainstream fans are more often than not really dedicated. Hell most of us here can even be considered "fiends". We come to a message board day in and day out and discuss music. Alot of us purchase music 20 cd's at a time. And were always looking for more and more new bands to get our "fix". Mainstream fans are the opposite. They usually just rave upon whatever is number 1 on the charts, can care less what music is not being played on the radio, and rarely buy a cd unless they absolutely love it. I would venture to say for every pop band that sells 1 cd...200 people listen to or atleast have heard of that band via radio,mp3, launch.com yadda yadda. Where as in the metal scene every band that sells a cd are targeting a minute audience which try and pick up every solid metal album released. The scene stays afloat due to a small yet strong fanbase.

 

[Reign in Acai]

The mainstream metal fan is more concerned on how technical the guitarist is than how good the band is at writing music. Simple music for simple minds.



You're kidding yourself if you think that's the reason. I appreciate the passion of art without calling myself a metaller/metalhead, or living a 'metal' way of life, or identifying myself as someone who's outcasted from the unenlightened norm because of my musical tastes and has a sense of 'comradery' with other rare, gifted people who feel the same.

I didn't mean it in that sense my good man. I basically meant we become metal "druggies". More and more music is needed or withdrawal symptoms occur . I didn't mean a metal fan needs to dress in black, grow their hair to their knees, and try and put on some morbid fascade. I was trying to imply how we indentify and become consumed with the music. And how this escalates over time. Sorry for the mis-clarification.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

I didn't mean a metal fan needs to dress in black, grow their hair to their knees, and try and put on some morbid fascade. Sorry for the mis-clarification.

I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of metal isn’t popular in the mainstream. People see that image as the typical metalhead, and the public looks down upon that image, and they don't realize that all metalheads aren’t like that (well, I’m certainly not). But, I know that this is an issue of image, not music, and unfortanitly a lot of mainstream perception is based on image, which is ridiculuos.

 

[CountSorion]

1) If metal were made more accessible, could it possibly retain its form, function, and integrity?

Of obvious reasons no. By definion, something that his in any way is being changed can't have the same charachterestics as it had before the change. And even if metal did not have to change to reach the mainstream, it would surely change when it has hit the mainstream.

2) How could this transition occur?

How it could occur? You mean how it's occuring, right? Metalcore, melo death and power metal are all possible gateways from the mainstream to the "underground". The truth is that these forms of metal are not nearly as underground as we might think... And then we have the poser BM bands etc...

3) Would it be a good thing if this happened? What benefits could there be? In other words, while we find metal worthwhile, would there be any point in this? Why pander to shallow listeners?

There are in my opinion no good results. All the changes that would happen would be done in a populist direction, which IMO is negative to the music. Increased records sales and other arguments won't matter. In fact they hardly have a value for the music

4) Is metal only as worthwhile for us, because it serves such a specific and personalized niche?

Ehh do not interpret this in the wrong way. I do not crave any kind of social acceptance. That is not my motive for listenig to this form of music. The truth is that the only one who knows what I listen to is myself. What makes metal worthwhile for me could be described like this:

Summoning, Burzum, The Chasm (and so on)

I.E. a small selection of bands that are truly great. The music then serve some kind of purpose for me which I am not exactly able to explain at the moment.

Some people have said that metal bands have been reaching the mainstream lately. These bands are nothing but proving my point here. Listen to In Flames and Arch Enemy. Honestly, these bands suck. Another example has been nightwish. They are sure getting popular, and they just as surely are complete garbage. It is a very small difference between bands like Nightwish and pure pop music.

 

[Keann_Athos]

I started playing in metal bands, in Dallas, Texas, when I was 13....played our first live show when I was 14. Back then (1984) metal and hard rock were everywhere. In fact, the guitarist and drummer from Pantera used to jam with all of us in a giant airplane hanger than my friend Mark Serkland's dad ran for the county. We didn't get into metal because it was underground. For a good 10 years it wasn't underground at all. It was more mainstream than most other genres at the time. That's why eMpTyV ended up starting the Headbanger's Ball. Metal was so popular that tonnes of new bands started stretching out into different sub-styles. Warrior Soul was a very conceptual metal band from Detroit that had self-compiled movies they showed on several big screens at their shows. Queensryche busted out into all kinds of new directions. Fates Warning merged the heaviest sounds with progressive metal. Sanctuary was quite different. Overkill finally started getting noticed and even had 3 videos playing on eMpTyV all the time, as did Testament, MegaDaves, Saigon Kick, Dream Theater, Badlands and hosts of others who got to diversify their sounds and styles because there was a gigantic market for anything heavy with metal guitar work on it. Even the blackest and thrashiest metal bands were given much more room to tour and sell CDs because the field was so wide open. It was back in 1981 and 1982, when metal was crawling back out of a huge slump that it'd been in, that many bands copied off of each other and there were lots of unoriginal and pretty lame ones. Also, most record labels wouldn't take a chance on a band if that band was extreme one way or the other. I mean, the heaviest of bands had little to no chance and the most melodic and progressive bands didn't either. But, the whole scene started busting out soon after that.....it's when Metallica started to change things also.
I hate having my favourite music as some hard to get underground scene. Myself, I hope never to see a freakin rap or hip hop video again as long as I live. That crap has been handed the spotlight for the past 10 years because the interns at the radio stations and video channels tried to go a new direction, for various reasons, mostly because 1) the newer people who began taking over at that time hadn't grown up liking or listening to metal, even though it was everywhere and was the mainstream sound, and 2) most of the metal bands gave the finger to anybody who tried to control them....lack of control over a marketable entity led many media agents to reach out to different genres, like grunge and hip hop, hoping that would capture the new teen and college audiences, hoping they'd have control over newer musicians.
I miss coming home from the clubs on a Sunday night and having the party's tv playing a Helloween video in the background followed by Armored Saint.
One of the reasons I moved down here to go to college, away from the huge city I was living in, was because the entire live metal scene fell apart by the mid 90s. It just wasn't worth trying to even be in a band anymore.
It took an overwhelming surge of fans on the internet to bring metal back to the point that we're even sitting here talking about going to shows again, about buying a new CD from a new metal band worth anything.
Even so, we're still nowhere near back to the peak metal had in the late 80s/early 90s. I have to watch a Pantera video on yahoo's "Launch" music site and even then I have to put up with their crapassed ads and sluggish videos with terrible sound and poor resolution. Otherwise, it's pay eMpTyV more money, via extending cable beyond the already outrageous monthly prices I pay, when eMpTyV already HAS a "music video" channel on extended basic cable that they could put Pantera on, instead of endless "reality (laughs, yeah right)" shows they aim at teen audiences, targeted to sell their makeup and other teen products to.
Back when metal was one of the most mainstream genres, a trailer hick out in the country could watch Pantera not only on the music channels but on basic, non-cable network tv. Channels like NBC and several local stations (I moved around the U.S. a lot as a kid) had late night metal shows on the weekends. Also, the radio had a great station called Z-Rock, which pumped metal over the airways, by satellite, to many U.S. cities. Even passing through New Jersey and New York, we'd pick up metal on the radio all the time, at all hours, mixed in with other music. Z-Rock by the way finally bottomed out and quit (except there's an alternate-rock/grunge/industrial version still kicking today, barely, in California) because all their advertisers said they no longer had confidence in the target audience. In other words, because metal stopped being mainstream, advertisers stopped wanting to take a chance on paying the stations, because they felt there were bigger audiences with other types of music.
Also, along with metal disappearing as a mainstream genre, the perception of society has changed, towards metal musicians and fans. There was a time when I used to fly from airports a lot and walking between gates, or at the terminals, I used to be able to snap my fingers and get any woman, and I mean any, that was near me...just because having hair and being in a band back then was a free ticket to being at the top of the food chain.
Nowadays if I'm in the same situations, the majority of the people seem to think I'm some odd animal who managed to keep going from prehistoric times. Metal, to most people I run into, is so "yesterday." There's some fool concept that "times have changed" and people should just move on.

Screw that.

What's changed is that metal isn't the mainstream anymore and it pisses us off. Hopefully with the internet audiences, it will get back to that status again, soon.

 

[Lyle]

I think that the public just cannot get their heads round our complex and superior genre.

4 real brah

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Perhaps a phenomenon such as what gave AOR and progressive rock a breakthrough would be needed in order for metal to reach a wider audience given the current stigma and stereotypes attached to the genre.

Agreed. That's what we need.