-Noodles-
3 Initals Mixer
- Dec 20, 2007
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you're missing the point,.. it's like normal behemoth stuff - just tighter, and better written.
They're a band who get greater every single time those guys play together, and write.
NEW BEHEMOTH
- Thread starter musickey
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you're missing the point,.. it's like normal behemoth stuff - just tighter, and better written.
They're a band who get greater every single time those guys play together, and write.
Well my feeling is Behemoth is one of my all-time favorite bands, and they're coming out with new stuff, so that's enough cause for me to lose it!
And Stee, even if you don't like the mix on The Apostasy, the music is still almost totally on par with Demigod IMO. And I can't understand how people (besides Ermin, cuz he's a weirdo, so I gave up trying to understand him ) dislike the mix - the drums are my favorite part, I think the kick sounds INCREDIBLE and I love that deep fucking snare that sounds SO natural and un-sample replaced compared to Demigod (and Zos Kia's mix is totally mediocre to me, especially the snare, good god, listen to the intro on the title track )
cobhc
Amiga Enthusiast
Well my feeling is Behemoth is one of my all-time favorite bands, and they're coming out with new stuff, so that's enough cause for me to lose it!
I understand, I guess I just like the more perfect sounding mixes they have had, I just never got into The Apostasy.
johnnypreset
The melter of heads
I'd forgotten how pant pissingly epic the video for at the left hand ov god was.
Hefty looking forward to the new stuff.
Hefty looking forward to the new stuff.
I like the songwriting on The Apostasy but think they layered to many guitars and lost some definition (Sorry Marcus!). Pretty amazing that the drums are all natural, if I remember correctly. I've never seen them live but seen enough videos to know that they're ferocious in a way that few bands are these days.
About Immolation being standard death metal... give "Close To A World Below" a listen. They have a twisted sense melody that strays into Gorguts territory. They also have the most ratty and raw production I've heard in a long time. Sounds kind of miserable but suits them perfectly.
About Immolation being standard death metal... give "Close To A World Below" a listen. They have a twisted sense melody that strays into Gorguts territory. They also have the most ratty and raw production I've heard in a long time. Sounds kind of miserable but suits them perfectly.
Djabthrash
Member
+1.
Immolation is everything but standard death metal to me. But they're not epic like Behemoth though (which doesn't mean epic means better or worse). And it takes a lot of listening before their stuff grows on you... or not !
(while Behemoth is more accessible from the start).
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
+1 The Left Hand Ov God was probably the best metal clip I've ever seen.
These guys are so theatrical; it just goes hand in hand with their music. When Nergal was floating over the water in that black robe thing I was losing my shit half laughing half windmilling my head off.
These guys are so theatrical; it just goes hand in hand with their music. When Nergal was floating over the water in that black robe thing I was losing my shit half laughing half windmilling my head off.
Sickan
¯\(°_o)/¯
deanbailey
O.C.D Member
The one riff sounds a little bit like "Antichristian Phenomenon" (Just a little)
I can agree with you and Marcus, I feel the "Musicianship" more without the make up and the performance more with it. Nergal did say in a youtube video (forgot which one) that it's not really behemoth with out the makeup though.
I think the word "perfect" is quite subjective here. I happen to think the oversampled drums sound (especially the snare in the beginning of Slaves Shall Serve) breaks the "realism" for me and the drums sound on the Apostasy is how "it's supposed to sound".
I'll compare this to the movie "I am Legend" where the CGI was so horse shit that I jumped out of the movie and back into my cinema seat (metaphorically speaking) because the CG lions/zombies were so poorly done and lost the realism of him being alone in NYC. If someones acting is bad they wouldn't allow that to be in the shot...so why the bad CGI? Perhaps some people like it? I honestly don't know.
Anyway my point is that I think of drum samples like CGI, (not really the real thing but it's pretty spot on) Jesus I always go waay off topic.
nwright said:
I can agree with you and Marcus, I feel the "Musicianship" more without the make up and the performance more with it. Nergal did say in a youtube video (forgot which one) that it's not really behemoth with out the makeup though.
cobhc said:
I think the word "perfect" is quite subjective here
. I happen to think the oversampled drums sound (especially the snare in the beginning of Slaves Shall Serve) breaks the "realism" for me and the drums sound on the Apostasy is how "it's supposed to sound".I'll compare this to the movie "I am Legend" where the CGI was so horse shit that I jumped out of the movie and back into my cinema seat (metaphorically speaking) because the CG lions/zombies were so poorly done and lost the realism of him being alone in NYC. If someones acting is bad they wouldn't allow that to be in the shot...so why the bad CGI? Perhaps some people like it? I honestly don't know.
Anyway my point is that I think of drum samples like CGI, (not really the real thing but it's pretty spot on) Jesus I always go waay off topic.
Haha, don't worry about it Dean, it's a good metaphor Although to be clear, I was disagreeing with Nwright, I would hate if they ditched the image
Although to be clear, I was disagreeing with Nwright, I would hate if they ditched the image And GODDAMN is the kick on "The Apostasy" good, jesus - the attack is so audible, and yet not at all annoyingly clicky (cuz it's so full); I'll eat my hat if it's not sample replaced, but I wouldn't want a natural kick for death metal anyway (hell, I don't think I'd want a natural kick in any metal)
However, in the handful of places where there are just guitars, I can definitely hear some clipping - oh well...
johnny dove
Member
didn't malta say that all the drums were acoustic except the kicks were triggered? it might have been on one of the videos but i'm pretty sure that's the case.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
The whole album clips quite frequently. It's a flat, 2-dimensional, roomy, demo-sounding, weak, distorted mess. IMO. Good songs though.
Haha, Ermz, you never cease to amaze and amuse See, my feeling is that Demigod is the flat and 2-dimensional mix, because everything sounds so mechanical and (in the case of the drums) hideously replaced (namely that snare, yeesh), and the guitars relatively thin. The Apostasy to me is awesome because of the *slight* (IMO) roominess to the drums, that just makes it feel so much more natural and mighty, combined with the roaring guitars (though they might have just a touch too much low-mids for me) and more natural, less constantly layered vocals. I'm not some hippie fruitcake who prefers crusty, shitty production cuz I think it's more "real" or "genuine," but at the same time I also can appreciate what I perceive as some life. Plus, I DEFINITELY prefer the kick on the Apostasy; the attack has a much more pleasing and full-sounding "smack," as opposed to the annoying clickyness on Demigod. And I LOVE that deep snare...
Also, I'm a guitarist first, and a mix engineer (hahaha, can't keep a straight face calling myself that) second, so maybe I just don't think in the terms you do, of a full mix and how it all works together (and I of course concede you're the more knowledgeable about mixing, cuz I barely ever do it). At the same time, though, you are without a doubt the single pickiest person with mixes and tones I've ever encountered...
See, my feeling is that Demigod is the flat and 2-dimensional mix, because everything sounds so mechanical and (in the case of the drums) hideously replaced (namely that snare, yeesh), and the guitars relatively thin. The Apostasy to me is awesome because of the *slight* (IMO) roominess to the drums, that just makes it feel so much more natural and mighty, combined with the roaring guitars (though they might have just a touch too much low-mids for me) and more natural, less constantly layered vocals. I'm not some hippie fruitcake who prefers crusty, shitty production cuz I think it's more "real" or "genuine," but at the same time I also can appreciate what I perceive as some life. Plus, I DEFINITELY prefer the kick on the Apostasy; the attack has a much more pleasing and full-sounding "smack," as opposed to the annoying clickyness on Demigod. And I LOVE that deep snare...Also, I'm a guitarist first, and a mix engineer (hahaha, can't keep a straight face calling myself that) second, so maybe I just don't think in the terms you do, of a full mix and how it all works together (and I of course concede you're the more knowledgeable about mixing, cuz I barely ever do it). At the same time, though, you are without a doubt the single pickiest person with mixes and tones I've ever encountered...
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
It's just who I am, mate. Whenever I commit to doing something all I focus on is ironing out the imperfections. Whether it be playing guitar, mixing, running a business etc.
I understand the characteristics in The Apostasy you like. It's understandable to me, but I just don't share the same perspective. I've done this for a few years now, and I've had my share of experience with audio students. Now the reason I bring them up is because 2nd or 3rd year audio students' mixes commonly resemble The Apostasy. Too much uncontrolled ambience, not enough definition or punch behind individual elements. Not enough hype, excitement, clarity etc. Not to mention the whole thing distorts terribly, has a completely unsculpted sounding midrange, fuzzy, flat and undefined guitars. It simply sounds like a rough mix to me. I thought I WAS listening to a rough mix for the first few days. I couldn't reconcile the idea of the same person who mixed Demigod mixing this.
Just listen to something like Breaking Benjamin's 'Phobia' right next to The Apostasy (not talking genre-specific anymore). Makes The Apostasy sound like some backroom demo. Phobia is a good indication of how you mix with, and get away with using a lot of low-mid. Things clash here and there but overall it still sounds very musical, very nice with crispy natural drums, fat-ass bass and very low-mid heavy (read: I fucking hate them, but they work for the mix) guitars.
You mentioned the kick on The Apostasy. I can't even really remark one way or the other because I just don't listen to individual elements out of context anymore. It's about how the mix works as a whole. To me the guitars and drum ambiance ruin the midrange on that record. The drums sound distant, undefined and very raw. Come to think of it you can barely hear the kick as something separate outside the mix. It just sounds like a ton of rumble with some type-writer click on top of it during those double bass runs. The bass has no definition on this record. Even the vocals somehow sound muffled, like Bergstrand was experimenting doing a mix by just leveling, and no EQ.
On Demigod the guitars are carved in the lower midrange frequencies, thus creating some space and depth to the mix. The upper mids are also a lot more even and sweeter to listen to. The drums sound weak as shit as single hits, but he accounted for the fact that most of the parts consist of blasting. There's a lot of high-mid cut in the drums to make sure you can make out every single hit. The subs on that record are ridiculous to boot. I lose my shit at the start of 'Towards Babylon' every time, and these pieces of shit I monitor on only have 5.5" drivers (so I lose my shit a little more on the M50s). The mix on the whole is brighter, clearer, punchier, more 'radio ready', if that term even applies to metal. The fact that it's sampled as a brick shithouse doesn't really matter to me. It's ridiculously fast death metal - you can't get the consistency and clarity the mix needs out of acoustic drums. Maybe a handful of players in the entire world even have a chance of pulling that off.
But that about covers most of it. There's no reason to assume that because I don't share your point of view, that I don't understand it. I've liked all kinds of production work over the years, and worked with many budding engineers when coming up through audio school, so I've got a bit of perspective on where mixes come from and where they can potentially go. The Apostasy simply sounds like an unfinished rough mix to me. That's just how it is.
EDIT: Shit that was about 200 words longer than it should've been.
I understand the characteristics in The Apostasy you like. It's understandable to me, but I just don't share the same perspective. I've done this for a few years now, and I've had my share of experience with audio students. Now the reason I bring them up is because 2nd or 3rd year audio students' mixes commonly resemble The Apostasy. Too much uncontrolled ambience, not enough definition or punch behind individual elements. Not enough hype, excitement, clarity etc. Not to mention the whole thing distorts terribly, has a completely unsculpted sounding midrange, fuzzy, flat and undefined guitars. It simply sounds like a rough mix to me. I thought I WAS listening to a rough mix for the first few days. I couldn't reconcile the idea of the same person who mixed Demigod mixing this.
Just listen to something like Breaking Benjamin's 'Phobia' right next to The Apostasy (not talking genre-specific anymore). Makes The Apostasy sound like some backroom demo. Phobia is a good indication of how you mix with, and get away with using a lot of low-mid. Things clash here and there but overall it still sounds very musical, very nice with crispy natural drums, fat-ass bass and very low-mid heavy (read: I fucking hate them, but they work for the mix) guitars.
You mentioned the kick on The Apostasy. I can't even really remark one way or the other because I just don't listen to individual elements out of context anymore. It's about how the mix works as a whole. To me the guitars and drum ambiance ruin the midrange on that record. The drums sound distant, undefined and very raw. Come to think of it you can barely hear the kick as something separate outside the mix. It just sounds like a ton of rumble with some type-writer click on top of it during those double bass runs. The bass has no definition on this record. Even the vocals somehow sound muffled, like Bergstrand was experimenting doing a mix by just leveling, and no EQ.
On Demigod the guitars are carved in the lower midrange frequencies, thus creating some space and depth to the mix. The upper mids are also a lot more even and sweeter to listen to. The drums sound weak as shit as single hits, but he accounted for the fact that most of the parts consist of blasting. There's a lot of high-mid cut in the drums to make sure you can make out every single hit. The subs on that record are ridiculous to boot. I lose my shit at the start of 'Towards Babylon' every time, and these pieces of shit I monitor on only have 5.5" drivers (so I lose my shit a little more on the M50s). The mix on the whole is brighter, clearer, punchier, more 'radio ready', if that term even applies to metal. The fact that it's sampled as a brick shithouse doesn't really matter to me. It's ridiculously fast death metal - you can't get the consistency and clarity the mix needs out of acoustic drums. Maybe a handful of players in the entire world even have a chance of pulling that off.
But that about covers most of it. There's no reason to assume that because I don't share your point of view, that I don't understand it. I've liked all kinds of production work over the years, and worked with many budding engineers when coming up through audio school, so I've got a bit of perspective on where mixes come from and where they can potentially go. The Apostasy simply sounds like an unfinished rough mix to me. That's just how it is.
EDIT: Shit that was about 200 words longer than it should've been.
cobhc
Amiga Enthusiast
I agree Ermin, sometimes I like the more raw sounding mixes. But with The Apostasy, I have to say the more polished Demigod wins on all accounts for me.
deanbailey
O.C.D Member
@ Marcus: Yeah I know lol I was trying to say I'm sorta 50-50 with the idea but leaning more towards the makeup.
Yeah, on one of the youtube studio diaries him and Nergal did, but Nergal said that they kept the dynamics of Inferno's kicks, so basically it was just the sound of the sample they needed for the mix, not the consistency of a stardard metal album.
I think that line answers a few questions in your post. I think if a drummer has a problem doing something it shouldn't be up to computer technology to solve it.
I agree with you in saying that the samples work better in the mix but there cannot possibly be no acoustic solution, I just refuse to believe that.
When a guitarists tone doesn't work they change the amps/cabs/guitars in the studio. I think the same principle should be applied to drums. There are bands like Machine Head that test out 3 different drum sets before recording, and I feel that this should be the norm. Not sample replacement which is what everyone is moving towards just because it's more convenient and cheaper. (I'll probably get an earful because of that line)
Recording is recording, Bands should enter a studio knowing exactly what 'problems' they might be up against so they can be financially prepared to deal with multiple testing etc. In Inferno's case it can be VERY time consuming: http://www.halfmanhalfmachine.net/inferno_kitconfig.htm
Obviously this is an exception for the bands who cannot really afford this luxury, but not for those who can.
Just an Opinion.
but leaning more towards the makeup.johnny dove said:
Yeah, on one of the youtube studio diaries him and Nergal did, but Nergal said that they kept the dynamics of Inferno's kicks, so basically it was just the sound of the sample they needed for the mix, not the consistency of a stardard metal album.
Moonlapse said:
I think that line answers a few questions in your post. I think if a drummer has a problem doing something it shouldn't be up to computer technology to solve it.
I agree with you in saying that the samples work better in the mix but there cannot possibly be no acoustic solution, I just refuse to believe that.
When a guitarists tone doesn't work they change the amps/cabs/guitars in the studio. I think the same principle should be applied to drums. There are bands like Machine Head that test out 3 different drum sets before recording, and I feel that this should be the norm. Not sample replacement which is what everyone is moving towards just because it's more convenient and cheaper. (I'll probably get an earful because of that line
) Recording is recording, Bands should enter a studio knowing exactly what 'problems' they might be up against so they can be financially prepared to deal with multiple testing etc. In Inferno's case it can be VERY time consuming: http://www.halfmanhalfmachine.net/inferno_kitconfig.htm
Obviously this is an exception for the bands who cannot really afford this luxury, but not for those who can.
Just an Opinion.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I think your point is only relevant to a... point.
The issue with super-fast metal drumming is that it isn't so much about the tone of the drums, but rather in the ability of the player to hit them consistently, and strongly at such speeds for such a long amount of time. No amount of drumkit switching is going to make the drummer super-human. So I feel the guitar/pickup analogy doesn't work in this case.
A more apt analogy would be if the guitarist were to be trying to gallop but with super-tight djent chug-mutes at 240 bpm. There is a limit to the human body, and at some point editing tricks would need to take over to compensate.
It's really a matter of whether you want those super-fast sections presented in a clean/punchy manner, or drift in and out of audible level and intensity as they do acoustically. My natural tendency is to present the SONG in the best light possible, free of the constraints of the players' abilities. That doesn't mean I'll beat detective everything to within an inch of its life. But at the same time if the player isn't capable, then the choice becomes to 'let through a subpar performance' or 'fix it'. Music should be about music after all - not peoples' egos. Sometimes the two get mixed up and get thought of as one and the same. The music isn't inseparable from the person.
The issue with super-fast metal drumming is that it isn't so much about the tone of the drums, but rather in the ability of the player to hit them consistently, and strongly at such speeds for such a long amount of time. No amount of drumkit switching is going to make the drummer super-human. So I feel the guitar/pickup analogy doesn't work in this case.
A more apt analogy would be if the guitarist were to be trying to gallop but with super-tight djent chug-mutes at 240 bpm. There is a limit to the human body, and at some point editing tricks would need to take over to compensate.
It's really a matter of whether you want those super-fast sections presented in a clean/punchy manner, or drift in and out of audible level and intensity as they do acoustically. My natural tendency is to present the SONG in the best light possible, free of the constraints of the players' abilities. That doesn't mean I'll beat detective everything to within an inch of its life. But at the same time if the player isn't capable, then the choice becomes to 'let through a subpar performance' or 'fix it'. Music should be about music after all - not peoples' egos. Sometimes the two get mixed up and get thought of as one and the same. The music isn't inseparable from the person.
deanbailey
O.C.D Member
Ah hah, I think I missed that part of your point.
That's true though, butP) then like you say it's down to the musicians ability, If there IS someone in the world that can do it (regarding your guitar analogy I'll answer John Schaffer from Iced Earth can probably do that at 260-270) then it just takes practice.
hehe I know I'm being extremely difficult with my replies but it's not to disagree with you at all but to add to the debate.
I'm not really against sampling compared to musicians ability, just back when Mozart struggled to play a piece he didn't really have anything except intense practice on his side and I think people are getting lazier by the generation.
I'll stop here
EDIT: Just thought I'd add, I love the songs on Demi God as much as I like the Apostasy btw so I'm able to look past production for a good band.
That's true though, but
P) then like you say it's down to the musicians ability, If there IS someone in the world that can do it (regarding your guitar analogy I'll answer John Schaffer from Iced Earth can probably do that at 260-270) then it just takes practice.hehe I know I'm being extremely difficult with my replies but it's not to disagree with you at all but to add to the debate.
I'm not really against sampling compared to musicians ability, just back when Mozart struggled to play a piece he didn't really have anything except intense practice on his side and I think people are getting lazier by the generation.
I'll stop here
EDIT: Just thought I'd add, I love the songs on Demi God as much as I like the Apostasy btw so I'm able to look past production for a good band.
