New Social Thread

Thanks, guys. Yes, I've calmed down but I don't take back anything I said. Won't respond to any comments dissing any of my bros in the School of Athens.

Went to bed sober for the first time in a couple months. Couldn't fall asleep till 3 AM. My mind is just too restless. It's a start.
 
That opinion you are answering is the general gist of the Republic (Plato in general), and to a lesser degree, echoes of Aristotle.
That Zeph is puppeting this position is not surprising given his narrow focus, but it is ignorance rooted in the early, fledgling philosophic endeavors.

It is the the exact same mindset that defends the worst sorts of abuse of both mankind and nature.

It's dismissive to think of them as fledging and sophomoric, don't make that mistake.
 
Their "bad philosophy" is the result of an entirely different cosmological perspective and understanding of the human subject. It's unfair to call their form of logic bad or flawed; it's actually no more flawed than the logic/reason that we use today.
 
zabu of nΩd;10252887 said:
What are you talking about exactly? My understanding of ancient/classical philosophy is pretty weak, but what dak and i were responding to initially was Jeremy's claim that oppression "makes great things possible" in society. I don't care what cosmological perspective the Greeks/Romans had, that kind of thinking is a mistaken, dangerous and morally disgusting denial of the potential for ................institutions to bring humanity out of the state of nature.

Mostly this. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that it would be nearly impossible for them to "know better" due to the lack of available written history, variety of perspectives, and infancy of philosophical thought itself, etc.

However, to say "it's all the same" is an intellectually dishonest position to take here. You wouldn't say the same thing about the actors hauling you off under orders given by people who fashion and fancy themselves as "philosopher kings" or just "destined to rule"/"divine", or other wise "special".
 
zabu of nΩd;10252887 said:
What are you talking about exactly? My understanding of ancient/classical philosophy is pretty weak, but what dak and i were responding to initially was Jeremy's claim that oppression "makes great things possible" in society. I don't care what cosmological perspective the Greeks/Romans had, that kind of thinking is a mistaken, dangerous and morally disgusting denial of the potential for political institutions to bring humanity out of the state of nature.

I think the claim that "oppression makes great things possible" is an extrapolation from the original ideas of Heraclitus and Zeno that change comes from opposition. Granted, the moral justification of a slave-based system is something we frown upon today; but back then, in a society where subservience to your polis was considered the highest priority, being a slave was a very important role. It might not have seemed that way to the slaves themselves; but those who subjugated them saw this as the natural order of the universe.

However, to say "it's all the same" is an intellectually dishonest position to take here. You wouldn't say the same thing about the actors hauling you off under orders given by people who fashion and fancy themselves as "philosopher kings" or just "destined to rule"/"divine", or other wise "special".

You're right that I wouldn't simply stand by quietly while this was done to me; but that doesn't change the fact that I can try and sympathize with their position. "Morality" differs from culture to culture; so to critique their actions based on what I perceive as the morality of my own liberty is to make the same mistake my enslavers make.
 
I think the claim that "oppression makes great things possible" is an extrapolation from the original ideas of Heraclitus and Zeno that change comes from opposition. Granted, the moral justification of a slave-based system is something we frown upon today; but back then, in a society where subservience to your polis was considered the highest priority, being a slave was a very important role. It might not have seemed that way to the slaves themselves; but those who subjugated them saw this as the natural order of the universe.


You're right that I wouldn't simply stand by quietly while this was done to me; but that doesn't change the fact that I can try and sympathize with their position. "Morality" differs from culture to culture; so to critique their actions based on what I perceive as the morality of my own liberty is to make the same mistake my enslavers make.

This misses the point. "Morality" is very much a red herring in this situation, particularly due to all the subjective connotations. The desire for good/fair treatment by others is universal across time and culture, as is the desire for a relative to advance at the expense of the rest.
 
This misses the point. "Morality" is very much a red herring in this situation, particularly due to all the subjective connotations. The desire for good/fair treatment by others is universal across time and culture, as is the desire for a relative to advance at the expense of the rest.

How does what I said miss the point?

The Ancient Greeks needed to justify their subjugation of slaves; their conception of the universe provides the basis for this justification. They perceived this as part of a natural order, the kosmos. Attempting to alter the natural order is morally reprehensible in Greek society.

Everyone desires good and fair treatment, but what the subjugated and the subjugators see as "good and fair" differs depending on their respective positions. Both attempt to morally justify their position. I'm aware of the error of this rationalization, but that doesn't mean both parties aren't guilty of it.
 
I can't remember any widely renowned thinker of recent history comparing slavery to capitalism and concluding that slavery is a preferable economic system. From what little i know of greek/roman philosophy it seems to me just very naive and out-of-date compared to modern philosophy. If you really want to debate this shit though, i'll totally pull out my old high school philosophy textbook and create a "Capitalism vs Slavery" thread for us. :)
 
How does what I said miss the point?

The Ancient Greeks needed to justify their subjugation of slaves; their conception of the universe provides the basis for this justification. They perceived this as part of a natural order, the kosmos. Attempting to alter the natural order is morally reprehensible in Greek society.

Everyone desires good and fair treatment, but what the subjugated and the subjugators see as "good and fair" differs depending on their respective positions. Both attempt to morally justify their position. I'm aware of the error of this rationalization, but that doesn't mean both parties aren't guilty of it.

Rationalizing bad behavior is normal. That doesn't make it acceptable or grant it equal standing with actual intellectual endeavors, other than tipping the hat to some of the first penned attempts at a body of theory, and forcing people to think and defend their thoughts, instead of just accepting. However, this is really all that the early philosophers did. They did not attempt to stray far from the cultural box, they instead tried to justify the status quo based on numerous assumptions drawn from the said status quo (which was, of course, favorable to themselves). This did lay the foundation though for future work to go beyond this infantile approach.
 
zabu of nΩd;10253692 said:
I can't remember any widely renowned thinker of recent history comparing slavery to capitalism and concluding that slavery is a preferable economic system. From what little i know of greek/roman philosophy it seems to me just very naive and out-of-date compared to modern philosophy. If you really want to debate this shit though, i'll totally pull out my old high school philosophy textbook and create a "Capitalism vs Slavery" thread for us. :)

Well, I think it's pretty safe to say that if there was a philosopher who did say that, we'd never hear about him/her. That's a pretty ridiculous claim to make, and our culture today completely eschews such a belief. In a way, contemporary philosophy is always constrained by the culture in which it works.

I think I'm being misunderstood, because I'm not advocating slavery over capitalism. However, I think it's presumptuous to think that human liberty, as a value, is necessarily universal. I think that what we perceive as the "value" of human liberty is simply the drive, or instinct, of living things to survive. When we project a value onto that, we're projecting a moral quantification onto basic biological instincts. It's flawed, however, to believe that every culture valorizes liberty in the way we do.

Rationalizing bad behavior is normal. That doesn't make it acceptable or grant it equal standing with actual intellectual endeavors, other than tipping the hat to some of the first penned attempts at a body of theory, and forcing people to think and defend their thoughts, instead of just accepting. However, this is really all that the early philosophers did. They did not attempt to stray far from the cultural box, they instead tried to justify the status quo based on numerous assumptions drawn from the said status quo (which was, of course, favorable to themselves). This did lay the foundation though for future work to go beyond this infantile approach.

In a way, all philosophy attempts to maintain the status quo, even while appearing to work against it. Philosophy (and, by extension, logic itself) is conditioned by the culture in which it develops. I find the idea that there is something universal about the valorization of liberty and the nuclear human subject to be mistaken. It is very clear that people did not always understand human subjectivity in this way.
 
In a way, contemporary philosophy is always constrained by the culture in which it works.
Sure, but in other ways it is more sophisticated than older philosophy, since it is built upon those preceding ideas and it also has more historical data points to reference in support of its claims. I think capitalism would seem like a pretty great idea to many classical philosophers if they had witnessed its creation and the historical events that led to it.
I think I'm being misunderstood, because I'm not advocating slavery over capitalism. However, I think it's presumptuous to think that human liberty, as a value, is necessarily universal. I think that what we perceive as the "value" of human liberty is simply the drive, or instinct, of living things to survive. When we project a value onto that, we're projecting a moral quantification onto basic biological instincts. It's flawed, however, to believe that every culture valorizes liberty in the way we do.
Well i still consider value the bottom line of everything in ethics, and from that perspective i agree with you that liberty in and of itself does not have universal value across all ethical contexts.
 
zabu of nΩd;10253898 said:
Sure, but in other ways it is more sophisticated than older philosophy, since it is built upon those preceding ideas and it also has more historical data points to reference in support of its claims. I think capitalism would seem like a pretty great idea to many classical philosophers if they had witnessed its creation and the historical events that led to it.

Oh, of course, I don't doubt it; but they're separated by exactly what you're describing: the historical possibility of even experiencing the conditions necessary for embracing something like liberal democratic capitalism.

I don't know if simply witnessing the process of historical development would be enough. Historical change can't happen on an individual basis, it takes centuries of gradual conditioning over generations. This is one reason why I sincerely believe that trying to force current, older living generations (i.e. our parents) to accept the normalcy of something like homosexuality is futile and impossible. This is also why the concept of electing change by picking a candidate that best represents our values is completely asinine. We have to accept that most individuals will not be able to abandon the social values of their upbringing; furthermore, electing a president that supports gay rights won't change the minds of those people who disagree.

All we can do is acknowledge that as generations pass, over centuries and through the process of base-level education and social interaction, eventually the cultural ideology will change. This change will be imperceptible to us as individuals as it happens, and can only be realized (or projected) in hindsight.
 
Historical change does not happen at a constant rate. It has been accelerating and the availability of education and communication has allowed ideas to spread faster and more widely. That and increased social mobility has allowed peoples' means to change. For example, a person may be very liberal because she is poor and sees the system works to her perceived disadvantage. Then over the course of her life she moves up in the system, becomes rich and because she perceived the system as benefitting her, she becomes a conservative/champion of that system. These shifts are symptomatic of individualism.
 
Naturally, I stand in defense of ancient philosophy against the naive notion that these thinkers were "infantile" cavemen who knew fuck all about anything.

I'll talk mostly about ancient slavery and connect it to questions about the value of its modern alternative, capitalism. I won't justify either but I feel the former needs to be seen within its proper context and I profess to know a thing or two about that context.

Our modern perception of slavery is far too influences by the reality of Black slavery in the 18th-19th century South/Caribbean, in the ideological atmosphere of Anglo-American classical liberalism. This was all based on the new concept of private property justified by natural right. It is here and no earlier that we start to use human beings as mass-producing machines labor in tandem with actual mechanical machines developed in the concurrent industrial revolution. The philosophy was the same in both North and South, but in the latter the means were of flesh and blood.

Slavery in Greece & Rome was entirely different, and placed within the also different context of the family (in their words: oikos/familia). It included not only blood relatives, but also slaves, which as a whole composed a politico-economic microcosm in which the father (paterfamilias) was the effective monarch. Relationships between masters and slaves were indeed family relationships, fostered by the notion that a healthy family functioned as a self-sufficient economic unit (the word "economy" is really the Greek word oikonomia, which means literally "household management").

But today, the economic/labor sphere and familial sphere of human life are much more separate, and the familial sphere is ever shrinking into insignificance as the economic sphere continues to encroach on our reality, severing every tie of value and community beyond an individual person's usefulness to feed the system.

Also, the concept of what constituted a natural slave was much different. First off, slaves were most often acquired as captives of war. Now despite the transitioning of Classical Greek society into a guilt culture (accelerated by a certain Plato whom you are so quick to dismiss), elements of Homeric shame culture still persisted, and one of them was honor (τιμή). You lose a battle/war/are captured, then that loss of honor entitles you to be fit to be a slave.

Now to my buddy Aristotle. He does NOT simply acquiesce and deem just the institution of slavery as it existed in his world. Rather, he developed a theory of masters and slaves "by nature" on the common sense idea that certain people are fit to rule and some fit to be ruled. He concluded that by dehumanizing economics (say, with the construction of what he calls "automata", what we'd call industrial technology), we create a system that dehumanizes humans and makes them obsolete and redundant.

I have more to say on ethics and cosmology but I'm hungry and need to cook dinner.