Non-Weebo Chill Bros Anime Thread

[eochaid]

I will add that, as I grew up, I've come to notice that the series have a lack of moral principles that I dislike. Starting DBZ. The fact that Goku only cares about fighting... At some point, he stopped caring about the well being of the people around and just wanted to fight strong people, no matter how much that would make regular citizens to suffer. The fact that they can resurrect everyone with the power of Shenron shouldn't be an excuse.

Then, they happily accept Vegeta though he never repents of all of the killings that he has done in the past.

Seeing how later mangas, lile One Piece and, specially Bleach, make their main characters to care about others, has changed a lot how I view DB. It's manga but, even in battle mangas, the heroes should have some kind of moral principles. At some point, Goku just lost them all and only cared about the fight.

 

[DE4life]

There's a bit in Daima where one of the characters says they can't believe Goku had children and raised them. He casually remarks he didn't have much to do with raising them. I think it sums him up. I think even Toriyama admitted Goku is a terrible father.

Goku is basically a child who never grew up. He loves his friends and family at a basic level, but fighting outweighs everything else in his life. In a way it actually makes a change and subverts the expectation of the hero being this totally morally clean person. Goku is far from that, and I guess it's intended that way. Kinda odd for a generally light-hearted series to have such a morally ambiguous main character, though.

The acceptance of Vegeta from the "heroes" initially is bizarre and incomprehensible. He does grow as a person, though - ironically far more than Goku by the end. He actually becomes a decent husband and father, something Goku never achieves. Vegeta is actually a better person than Goku by the end of the series, by any metrics you'd judge an adult. He's still got flaws, but unlike Goku he actually tries to improve himself to be a better person for his family.

Honestly I just don't think Toriyama took DB so seriously as to feel he needed to justify anything on a moral level. I think he just saw it as a wacky kids manga and so such things weren't especially important. As an adult you see things differently, but as a kid watching it I never really thought about Goku's questionable morals or Vegeta being forgiven for his sins. The show was just fun to watch, and I get the feeling Toriyama didn't think much beyond that either.

The biggest issue for me post-Cell saga is how Gohan is treated. He's primed to become the focus, but gets dumped into the background afterwards and everything shifts back to Goku. It's pretty much been that way ever since. Gohan was a cool character because he had his father's fighting potential, but was also intelligent in an academic and emotional sense. The series shifting to once again focus exclusively on Goku just makes Gohan's entire arc from the Saiyan saga to the Cell saga seem like an absolute waste of time.

DB ultimately just became a nostalgia-fest after Z ended. GT basically went back to the original DB concept for the first half, and rehashed DBZ for the second part. Freeza has been brought back repeatedly even though his character is one-dimensional and always loses in the end. The obsessive focus on transformations was boring even during the initial run. Original Super Saiyan transformation and Gohan's SSJ2 ascension - fine. Everything afterwards is just repeating the same trick over and over. Although admittedly I think the SSJ3 design is cool.

When you look at DBZ objectively, it's the same thing happening again and again in every arc. Even as a kid, I lost interest after the Cell saga because I knew the Buu saga would ultimately hit the same story beats. The characters didn't evolve enough to hold my interest, even then. But again, I just don't think Toriyama was taking it that seriously. To him it was just a silly show, and probably he was mentally checked out after the Freeza arc anyway.

 

[eochaid]

The parenting problem is evident but, for me, what's wrong is how he outs fighting over the well being of people. He doesn't care that people suffers as long as he has his fight. I guess that, this change in moral values starts during the Cell arc, where Toriyama just stopped caring about everything. And, I think, maybe because the people who came after Toriyama changed everything, that having a moral background for a hero is necessary. Because, otherwise,.instead of a hero we just have a dude who likes to fight no matter what.

Gohan and Goten both suffer the same destiny. They are supposed to be the main characters after his father but then they are sent to total irrelevance, obscured by a lame plot development and total lack of character construction. In the end, they serve for nothing. Well, Gohan has his thing during the Cell saga with the future thing but, after that, he is just a third rate character with little to nothing to do.

Then, the story, yes. Evolution after evolution makes all the Super Saiyan thing just irrelevant. I remember having goosebumps when I first saw Goku's transformation while now is just another one, the first step in a direction that seemed to have no end.

 

[eochaid]

I'll expand on the moral part and newest manga. Newest that DB.

In One Piece, Luffy wants to be a pirate and wants to fight but he doesn't want people to suffer and he is also suffering when other do. He wants to help regular people.

In Bleach, Ichigo wants to be stronger for the sake of others. He doesn't want to become a shinigami but he does because he cannot see others suffering.

In Kaiju N 8, Kafka puts other people safety over his own safety, to the point were he risks being annihilated by the same people that he is defending in order to save them from a greater danger.

In Spy X Family, Twilight wants war to end. He's more concerned about people safety than about his own country power.

In Bakemonogatari, Araragi is constantly fighting to help others. He's never using his powers for himself.

Goku, on the other side, I was going to say that he is morally ambiguous but he's not. He's mostly like Denji from Chainsaw Man, he fights for his own interest and doesn't give a shit about the people surrounding him. There's not a single time during his fights where his thought go to his wife, for example. He just doesn't care. I find that, today, annoying. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the story since that is part of the arca that I didn't like. But it makes him les humane and, at the same time, less relatable. No one is going to care or give s fuck about a character that doesn't care or give a fuck about the others. I think that played a big part on the downfall of the show. That people could not relate to the interests of the main character anymore. By the latest arcs of DB, we only care about Goku because he's the only one who can defeat the people that are threatening the earth, not because we sympathize with him.

 

[DE4life]

I think it's one of those things where the old fans of DB grew up, but the writing never matured. I guess it's fine for new, younger fans, but for people who have been watching it a long time it's increasingly difficult to invest in the story. Mainly because so many of the characters barely have any real evolution. As an adult you want something a bit deeper, but Dragonball has never offered that.

Goku's entire character development is just him getting stronger, more transformations and wanting to fight bigger and better enemies. That's it. There's nothing else to him. There were plenty of routes to go down with his character, but he's remained one-dimensional throughout.

Vegeta does evolve as a character to an extent, but he's forever defined by wanting to best Goku and keep up with him. He's gone from doing this at the expense of all others to actually considering his family, but still, there isn't much else to him either. GT came the closest to actually showing him as a normal, functioning member of society, but he was basically a side character in that show. Also whoever gave him the mustache is an idiot.

Gohan is one of the few characters who had an interesting and compelling arc until the Cell Saga. Then mostly forgotten about, making his story seem somewhat pointless in the grand scheme of things. He had the potential to be an emotionally complex and conflicted character, in contrast to his father, but it never happened. Feels like Toriyama lost interest in him entirely after the Cell Saga. Or just lost interest in DB as a whole and just wrote basic stuff because he didn't have interest in creating anything more interesting.

Piccolo similarly has a decent enough arc across DBZ up until the Cell Saga, but then he's just a mid-tier backup and doesn't really do much else. Lots to explore with him, but we never see anything substantial.

I could go on, but yeah, the characters in Dragonball didn't really have any growth past the Cell Saga. Just strengthens my belief that it should have generally ended there. If they wanted to do some one off movies afterwards then fine (and even a short show like Daima is OK), but not much point in doing the Buu Saga, GT and Super. There just isn't anything new there. As you said, it's just about making money - at the expense of other shows which actually have good character development and stories, as DB as a franchise will always steal people's attention even if it's not offering anything new.

 

[eochaid]

I'm not sure about the younger generations. They don t seem ti be that much interested on the series. I do not hear children the age of mine ever talking about DB.