Opeth Breakout

[hibernal_dream]

What does the original question have to do with songwriting? Absolutely nothing. And I think you're making a mistake by lumping Orchid and Morningrise together. The latter is a step above.

Yes, To Bid You Farewell is a bit meandering but Morningrise is the album they took the inconsistent ideas of a young and impressionable band on Orchid, penned their longest song ever, and established a deliberate consistency of style which remains unchanged to this day. This is their one and only characteristic which distinguishes Opeth from other metal.

Yes, MAYH has balls but doesn't the fact that the rage and intensity of MAYH was appeased on their next two releases their confidence with that approach was lacking? Still Life is my fave too but you must see that it is a return to the sophistication and complexity Morningrise brought to the table. It was simply a perfection of their style. Perhaps you're mistaking confidence for a powerful guitar sound and good musicianship.

PS people give reasons for your thoughts - just writing "MAYH" is worthless

 

[Sexy_Grandpa]

MYAH i'd say is definitely the album where the band 'found themselves' but I'd say that Blackwater Park took it to the next level.

 

[Ermz]

Not at all. Also, songwriting has everything to do with confidence. The more confident you are in yourself, the more willing you would be to try writing music that's off the wall and unique.

How is Morningrise a step above Orchid? I've always wondered about that when select Morningrise fans have brought it up in the past. I can't see any sort of progression. Morningrise, if anything, is more mundane than Orchid. The material itself is more droning, monotonous etc. They didn't find anything about themselves that wasn't already there. It was almost a regression, which is why I'm so glad they threw it all to the wind and chanced MAYH.

I think there's a lot more to Opeth than long songs and that characteristic 'ooh heavy riff... wait time to take it down, another acoustic part.... alright cool build it up... SOLO... sweet, now lets do that again' which you seem to be suggesting.

There was an overhaul of the overall sound on MAYH. They changed... their riff changes and movements within the music actually started to mean something. The changes stopped feeling obligatory, and started feeling more natural.

Every song on Morningrise is more than 10 minutes long. So much of it was forced, in particular Black Rose Immortal. That could easily have been 2 or 3 seperate tracks. If anything Morningrise was the same formulaic approach used on Orchid, except with the tracks dragged on longer, as if that would make them seem somewhat more progressive and meaningful than they actually were.

Yet if we dissect the original question, it's in 2 parts.

In which album did they 'find themselves'?

I maintain that it's MAYH, for reasons outlined above.

Then there's... 'Which album seems to have a sense of...confidence..about it?'

If we assume the thread starter is asking 'which album has the *most *confidence about it' the answer would have to undeniably be Ghost Reveries.

Amidst all criticism from fans of being 'sell outs' for moving onto Roadrunner and having nowhere to go after the previous set of albums, Opeth pushed on and released the most sonically mature album they ever have. Mikael's vocal style, the musicianship, the willingness to try keys etc. all marked a confidence that they didn't have previously. The music is almost minimalistic compared to the frantic "we need 5 different guitar parts here!" style of Still Life, yet the arrangement itself lends to the album's brilliance. Simply the way one part flows to another shows a band that know the game they're playing very well.

 

[hibernal_dream]

On confidence:

The original question is not necessarily in 2 parts. My interpretation was that the "confidence" part threw light on the first part of the question. A better phrasing would be something along the lines of 'on which record did Opeth find their own style, as demonstrated by a certain confidence in the songs'. Such a question assumes, as do you, that Opeth was lost in the first place and needed to be "found". Is this the case? I don't really agree. If so, the original poster and yourself need to elaborate on exactly what we're focusing on. What is present on later releases that the earlier ones lack?

On songwriting:

Your initial comments were to the effect that their songwriting has improved, demonstrating confidence. Then you say that confidence leads to more experimentation in songwriting, which somehow equates to better songwriting. Circular reasoning? Perhaps, but MAYH is by far their most traditional release. It has most in common with other styles of metal and rock music in general, even going back to the 60s.

I can see how Morningrise might appear droning to some. But here we see the consistency in songwriting that I mentioned. The music no longer jumps all over the place like on Orchid, it forms one cohesive style which remains present on all albums up until Ghost Reveries. But then MAYH returns to the jumpy, schizophrenic feel of Orchid with an added dose of heaviness. Progression?

The MR tracks could be split into 3 separate tracks, but so what? Some classical pieces are divided into several movements, does this damage their status?

I can't comment further about MR being forced, if you think it is. But consider that most fans agree that Grand Conjuration is their most forced song ever. For me that title goes to Deliverance, but against either song BRI is comparative lubricant gel.

Once again, if it is songwriting that sets MAYH apart from MR, then I fail to see the change from "obligatory" to "natural", and how such a change would be considered better songwriting in a style of music that is inherently disjointed, maintaining interest largely by sudden changes rather than the subtler riff movements which traditional death and black metal bands employ.

I don't know how much further we can go with this, but thanks for your comments - I enjoyed responding to them.

 

[:Wreath:]

dude... the question was when the band actually found themselves... even a toddler would notice there's a thick red line separating Orchid and Morningrise from their later works, even if (and I agree with that) Morningrise was a progressioncompared with Orchid... I see you're guarding Morningrise because of your sentiment to it but this is not 'the best album' thread...

 

[makethestringscry]

"Which album do you think Opeth really "found themselves"? Which album seems to have a sense of...confidence..about it. Imo, Still Life."

First Question:
Which album, do you think, that Opeth started relying on a certain style or sound, I personally find MAYH, is where the sound started coming from, but Still Life is where it was solidified.

Second Quesiton:
I feel that Still Life's style and atmosphere carried over into their later works more than any other album before it. So i feel that the band felt, "Yes this is it, this is where it really "begins"." Even though its the same band, imo, Still Life and Morningrise are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT albums with completely different feels. Almost in a way that Morningrise is an album by a band that is trying to be like the band that wrote Still Life. Therefore Still Life, is my answer, for both questions.

 

[hibernal_dream]

dude... the question was when the band actually found themselves... even a toddler would notice there's a thick red line separating Orchid and Morningrise from their later works, even if (and I agree with that) Morningrise was a progressioncompared with Orchid... I see you're guarding Morningrise because of your sentiment to it but this is not 'the best album' thread...

I already said MR is not my fave. Its probably my 3rd favourite at the most. I'm the only one here not treating this thread like a "best album" thread. Oh, but Orchid and MR are produced exactly the same, therefore they sound the same, I hear you say. I guarantee if MR had MAYH's production you'd be laughing at what you just said

 

[Seance]

Morningrise, if anything, is more mundane than Orchid. The material itself is more droning, monotonous etc. They didn't find anything about themselves that wasn't already there. It was almost a regression, which is why I'm so glad they threw it all to the wind and chanced MAYH.

.

I can see how Morningrise might appear droning to some. But here we see the consistency in songwriting that I mentioned. The music no longer jumps all over the place like on Orchid, it forms one cohesive style which remains present on all albums up until Ghost Reveries. But then MAYH returns to the jumpy, schizophrenic feel of Orchid with an added dose of heaviness. Progression?

Oh, but Orchid and MR are produced exactly the same, therefore they sound the same, I hear you say. I guarantee if MR had MAYH's production you'd be laughing at what you just said

there isn't one line in any of that that is even remotely on base

 

[FloyD ThraSh3r]

Orchid, Morningrise
________________________________________________________

MAYH, SL, BWP, DEL, DAM, GR

Nuff said'

Just look at the discography and what albums are similar to one another. The first album to signnify the change was the one that they "found themselves":Smug:
BUTT
The question is bad - it should be "what album benchmarked a significant change in style and had a greater influece on thier general proggression as a band drawing to thier current release Ghost Reveries"

Structure, Lyrics, Growling, Playing, damn.........................

And the winner is "My Arms Your Hearse"

I don't think confidence has ever been an issue with any of thier albums, combining folk music and sweeping piano breaks with heavy metal is pretty fucking ballzy, espescially in a time of a euro Death Metal craze and Nu Metal droning.

Anybody else feel that GR is most like MAYH? I think a change is in the winds for the band we all know and luv.

 

[Alex78]

Moonlapse strikes again!

 

[shark22]

I would say Opeth found their true sound on the Still Life album.
The vocals started to sound like they do currently, both screamed and clean. The overall formula on that album is what they currently do. A kickass first song, followed by a more experimental spng that was GHL, then a mellow song... . Also, interms of production, though this is not actually a confidence in playing aspect, it showed how they wanted to mix the songs and texture for the best display of sound.
Starting with Still Life album I feel opeth found thier sound and went with it. MAYH was a change, but differnt from anything they have ever done. So yes Still life is where they found the "sound".