Orchestral metal

[Embla]

So, boys and girls, what's your opinion on orchestral music in metal? (Sorry if this is a non Swanö topic... you may tie him in if you wish ) I'm a big fan of evil, dark orchestral (classical) music and in IMO it works so well with metal, black metal in particular. People may say what they want about Dumme Birger (sorry, it's just as funny every time), but I love them. "Death Cult Armageddon" is just brilliant. I could hear this in them even back in the days of the exploratory tentacles of Enya-like arpeggios in "Mourning Palace" and I'm glad they pursued it.
Any thoughts?

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

Well there's no denying that Emperor's Opus A Satana from the Reverence MCD rules. I don't know if Ihsahn's synth-compositions in general could be considered orchestral. Actually I don't care. They fucking rule.
So I agree with big orchestral things being a part of black metal...

Pain Of Salvation has added A LOT to some of their songs by including string compositions on them,only the strings on The Perfect Element come to mind now though,but I know some of the other albums had them too. Funny thing is...the string parts are very alike to some riffs,you just HAVE TO,if not headbang,at least kinda nudge your head along to them...and now PoS has played those BE shows with a 9-piece orchestra,which they'll release a studio album for next year. Sounds great.
Also My Dying Bride used to have awesome violin intros. I liked those.

I thought it was Dummy Burger?

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

dont you think that 'grunting' is a bit daft like?

 

[Embla]

Well there's no denying that Emperor's Opus A Satana from the Reverence MCD rules. I don't know if Ihsahn's synth-compositions in general could be considered orchestral. Actually I don't care. They fucking rule.
So I agree with big orchestral things being a part of black metal...

The Norwegians really know how to cross breed with orchestral music. But I suppose they've had far better classical composers in the past than the Swedes have (oh well Grieg at least ) Have I got this all wrong, or how do Ulver sound like these days? Orchestral at all? Anyone?
Wonder why the Swedish BM scene stagnated and the Norwegian progressed?

Are Pain of Salivation going 'orchestral'? I was hoping they'd go more progressive... not in the sense of "play weird", but like... more moogs

Btw, my favourite Celtic Frost track was always "Innocence and Wrath", so I guess I should have known where my music taste was headed...

Wonder if Mimmi Burger (you have to have seen Tre Kronor to get that one) like Diabolical Masquerade's "Death's Design"?

 

[ColdDarkNord]

hej Esa...
U know better than me that all progression in norvegian BM scene exists only owing to separate people like samoth, hellhammer, garm and a few others... so its just the local success, nothing more... + very high social life in Norway, they can able to afford the whole orchestre in the studio... Try to count russian classical composers and compare resilts to norvegians... I dont know any russian orchestred BM act cos we suck in social u know....

sorry for chaotic and bad english, im a bit "in the beer process"

ps: Sweden gave ABBA (and ofcourse mighty ARGENTUM!) to the world, second band after the beatles in the sales... just remind you

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

i mean, whats the meaning of growling like? anger? your mum never growls when she shouts at you does she? sadness? you dont growl at funeral. i just dont understand growling and grunting.

 

[Light]

Have I got this all wrong, or how do Ulver sound like these days? Orchestral at all? Anyone?

Last Ulver I heard was avantgarde/ambient/jazz/techno, but there's been at least a couple of releases since then, so who knows...

Wonder why the Swedish BM scene stagnated and the Norwegian progressed?

Something in the water? I'm not sure this is true... there's still plenty of good stuff coming out of Sweden... although the gods died, three days ago :/

 

[Light]

i just dont understand growling and grunting.

A lyric sheet helps...

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

Growling is the ultimate way of expressing/delivering your emotions...try Dan's Moontower. One of the best vocals ever on that album. Also one of the most honest lyrics.
Singing can be very beautiful and fitting for some songs,but growling...it just has that something. Add Reality wouldn't be the lovesong that it is if it didn't have growls (and still the clean vocals at the end are wonderful).
Plus,at least growling is better than what Laihiala was doing around the time of Down-Crimson,something between growling and annoying clean vocals (they're still not THAT bad though...),if you know what I mean mehdi. Glad he sounds better on the latest.
AND,I don't think that your mom starts yelling (singing) at you with a high-pitched trained voice either if she's mad at you,or you do the same at anyone's funeral. She just screams with her face red. So I don't think that's a very good comparison.

Now,to continue the real subject,I'm not sure if PoS is going more orchestral Embla,but having a 9-piece orchestra on an album would kinda indicate something like that. What I got from the little video clip that was broadcasted on Sweden's national tv (downloaded it),of course the prog elements still exist,but I don't think they're going "progressive" in the sense of making the musical much more technical than it is. Some interesting instrument choices though...like a very weird guitar (which Daniel plays a great riff with) and a similar ending as in TPE where all the guys are playing some sort of a drum. But you know,can't really know what it's like before you hear the whole piece.
I would guess that The Perfect Element Pt.II is going to be pretty huge both musically and lyrically. Hopefully they'll get it out sometime in 2005.
What do you mean with "more moogs"?

I listened to a bit of Ulver's A Quick Fix Of Melancholy at the record store and it sounded pretty good...but I didn't have time to give it lots of time which I think it needs so can't tell. Perdition City doesn't get my attention at all from what I've listened to it. Too much techno. But A Quick Fix... was much more about atmosphere and space...
Why they didn't include a goddamn booklet in A Quick Fix... I'll never know. Or at least in the next 15 minutes.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

Growling is the ultimate way of expressing/delivering your emotions...try Dan's Moontower. One of the best vocals ever on that album. Also one of the most honest lyrics.
Singing can be very beautiful and fitting for some songs,but growling...it just has that something. Add Reality wouldn't be the lovesong that it is if it didn't have growls (and still the clean vocals at the end are wonderful).
Plus,at least growling is better than what Laihiala was doing around the time of Down-Crimson,something between growling and annoying clean vocals (they're still not THAT bad though...),if you know what I mean mehdi. Glad he sounds better on the latest.
AND,I don't think that your mom starts yelling (singing) at you with a high-pitched trained voice either if she's mad at you,or you do the same at anyone's funeral. She just screams with her face red. So I don't think that's a very good comparison.

do you have any song from moontower to advice? i dont understand how you can growl on a lovesong. i mean, when youre in that romantic restaurant where you take your girl every once in a while, you get your man playing jazz on piano, hes not growling like. when you take your wan for a kebab too at night, you dont growl to her 'lets go for a kebab love grrrr!' do you? and youre right about your man from children of bodom, theyre a bit shit and useless imo. what i meant with my exemples is that when your mum shouts at you because shes angry, she sounds like tom araya or james hetfield 86', not like chris barnes. and when you go to funerals, you sound like tori amos on 'me and a gun', not like the growling bits on opeth you know or like skepticism or cathedral.

 

[commandante]

can't you understand? your analogies just don't make sense...

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

i dont think you want to understand the analogies actually

 

[unknown]

when I see the term "orchestral metal" I think of two bands:

Hollenthon and Winds

 

[Withstand_The_Fall_Of_Time]

When I think orchestral metal, right away I think of Dark Lunacy's Devoid. Really interesting stuff IMHO!

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

Yeah mehdi of course your mom sounds like Hetfield or Araya,cause all of the 3 have very limited voices. Good for their music,but Hetfield couldn't sing Edge Of Sanity for shit. Yeah and just to make clear,what I mean is that Swanö/Åkerfeldt/Schuldiner/Stainthorpe etc. can do so much better than your mother/Araya/Hetfield.
Try out Sun Of The Night and Add Reality from Moontower mehdi...the music isn't very death metal like,more like prog metal with growling vocals. Oh and read the lyrics.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

Yeah mehdi of course your mom sounds like Hetfield or Araya,cause all of the 3 have very limited voices. Good for their music,but Hetfield couldn't sing Edge Of Sanity for shit. Yeah and just to make clear,what I mean is that Swanö/Åkerfeldt/Schuldiner/Stainthorpe etc. can do so much better than your mother/Araya/Hetfield.
Try out Sun Of The Night and Add Reality from Moontower mehdi...the music isn't very death metal like,more like prog metal with growling vocals. Oh and read the lyrics.

i dont think hetfield or araya are limited because they dont growl. what i mean is that, when i listen to 'and justice for all' or 'south of heaven', it sounds like an angry man shouting angry stuff. when i listen to Åkerfeldt/Schuldiner/Stainthorpe etc it juts sounds like someone trying to sound like a monster in a walt disney movie.

and thanks for the advice ill check them two tracks.

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

Heh well can't please everyone. Growling vocals just aren't for everyone. I couldn't listen to them a couple years back either...
It's a fact that Hetfield's vocal scale for example is very limited compared to Åkerfeldt's,but sure he sounds great on most of the albums.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

It's a fact that Hetfield's vocal scale for example is very limited compared to Åkerfeldt's,but sure he sounds great on most of the albums.

ah hes not that limited really. some stuff he does on 'load' and 'reload' is pretty good, even tho if it sounds a bit processed but i reckon hes quite good [or was ]. and i think your man from opeth sounds a tad too monotonous and hes not exactly rob halford like. but well, whatever floats your boat.

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

Monotous? Going from the rawest growl in Sweden to a beautiful clean voice is monotous? Yeah well,floats my boat damn well!

I agree that Het sings well on Load,but I still consider his scale limited. Now that his clean voice got better with Loads his screaming suddenly went worse. Just listen to S&M.

Checked out the Swanö stuff yet?

I'm sorry that this went all off-topic,please continue about the subject and all. I just figured this was a good conversation to carry on.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

Monotous? Going from the rawest growl in Sweden to a beautiful clean voice is monotous? Yeah well,floats my boat damn well!

I agree that Het sings well on Load,but I still consider his scale limited. Now that his clean voice got better with Loads his screaming suddenly went worse. Just listen to S&M.

Checked out the Swanö stuff yet?

I'm sorry that this went all off-topic,please continue about the subject and all. I just figured this was a good conversation to carry on.

by monotonous i meant the clean voice bits. the melodies he sings with his clean voice sound quite monotonous to me really. and growling is as monotonous as one can get too.

there are some well tricky bits to sing on metallicas records really, i wouldnt call him limited. maybe on 'ride the lightning' but 'load' and 'reload' had some impressive bits. and s&m was a big let down for me.

and havent checked moontower yet but i deffo will, as i need to find out where all this self praising comes from haha.