Philosophy and Anti Semitism

[Devildog11887]

This came up in another thread in General Discussions.
Do you believe that anti-semitism is commonplace with philosophers?
I don't because many of the great philosophers were not anti-semitist.

 

[Norsemaiden]

The weird thing is that non-Jewish Arabs are semites, and the Jews are anti-Arab (or at least most Israelis are). It could just as well be said that the Jews are anti-semitic! Most Jews are not Semitic because they are not Middle-Eastern in origin. The Romans wiped out nearly all original semitic Jews.
Of Jews today, the vast majority are Ashkenazi Jews - decended from a Turkish tribe called the Khazars. They were converted to Judaism in the 8th century by order of their king. Turks are not semites.

The North African Jews, Sephardin, are the original Jews, they are about 10% of Jews.

 

[speed]

This came up in another thread in General Discussions.
Do you believe that anti-semitism is commonplace with philosophers?
I don't because many of the great philosophers were not anti-semitist.

Its a shame there were anti-semitic philsophers, but saying that, there are more great jewish philosophers, than great anti-semitic ones: Spinoza, Marx, Bergson, Wittgenstein (parents converted). Also, I'd like to add that some philosophers that are considered anti-semitic by some misinformed souls, like SPengler and Nietzsche, were anything but anti-semitic, and were if anything, praising jews.

 

[skerdilaid]

Where?

 

[speed]

Where?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573922234/104-4423168-0327920?v=glance&n=283155

A^^ book on the subject. If you knew anything about Nietzsche--as in read his biography, you would know he had a major falling out with Wagner partly due to Wagner's anti-semitism; and there are a passages--I believe in Beyond Good and Evil--that defend the jewish race. Of course, he hates the Jewish religion, and Christianity. So, I can easily understand your confusion.

As for Spengler, who is not as influential or well-known anymore, and was always viewed with Skepticism by his philosophical contemporaries (unfairly I believe), he is the first I have read, to consider that Jews as a people were ahead of every other race, and this cultural age--the final age of decline of the west, was the Jewish age. Like the previous article posted about Jews having higher IQ's, he proposed that Jews were so much better in intellectual and money making spheres, because they were obviously the first totally removed from the land, and from any national or patriotic inhibitions. Hence, if you read his works, you will notice he has a begrudging respect for the Jewish race as being ahead of everyone else. I dont remember him ever degrading them.

For some reason, I feel I am the only one who will defend jews on this board. I have had nothing but good relations with them, and surprisingly Cincinnati is the worldwide center for Reform Judaism, so I guess for some reason, I have had more contact than many others. Sure they are clannish people, and there are a number of other stereotypes that in my experience are actually true; but, hell, the Greeks and Italians, and other Middle Easterners arent much different in their clannishness. Total opinion here though.

 

[Kenneth R.]

For some reason, I feel I am the only one who will defend jews on this board.

You and the Christian
<----

 

[anonymousnick2001]

And the Muslim.

<------

 

[MURAI]

Its a shame there were anti-semitic philsophers, but saying that, there are more great jewish philosophers, than great anti-semitic ones: Spinoza, Marx, Bergson, Wittgenstein (parents converted). Also, I'd like to add that some philosophers that are considered anti-semitic by some misinformed souls, like SPengler and Nietzsche, were anything but anti-semitic, and were if anything, praising jews.

Yes, Nietzsche would of praised the Jews for their strong bond and pride to stick to their traditions (culture, race, religion etc) even though obviously he hated Christianity which is an offshoot of Judaism.

 

[spaffe]

I think that the notion of a special connection between anti-semitism and philosophers is a false one. Seeing that anti-semitism has been so wide spread throughout the course of western history, an anti-semitic philosopher is hardly something extraordinary within the context of his own time. It's simply not very surprising that even great men fall pray to a certain zeitgeist. Hence opinions that were at one time widespread among people are forgotten, but survive in the texts of the philosophers and are seen as odd and deviant by future generations, with a another set of social/cultural axioms.

But, on the other hand, perhaps the connection philosophy-anti-semitism has some truth to it, all though on a somewhat indirect level. Great thinkers, with a focus on an comtemplative life, tend to look down upon petty worldly interests -- and perhaps more than anything else: that of making money. As we all know jews have been especially associated with this activity for the last 1500 years or so. Perhaps there's a connection here?

 

[speed]

I think that the notion of a special connection between anti-semitism and philosophers is a false one. Seeing that anti-semitism has been so wide spread throughout the course of western history, an anti-semitic philosopher is hardly something extraordinary within the context of his own time. It's simply not very surprising that even great men fall pray to a certain zeitgeist. Hence opinions that were at one time widespread among people are forgotten, but survive in the texts of the philosophers and are seen as odd and deviant by future generations, with a another set of social/cultural axioms.

But, on the other hand, perhaps the connection philosophy-anti-semitism has some truth to it, all though on a somewhat indirect level. Great thinkers, with a focus on an comtemplative life, tend to look down upon petty worldly interests -- and perhaps more than anything else: that of making money. As we all know jews have been especially associated with this activity for the last 1500 years or so. Perhaps there's a connection here?

Yes, I suppose you are right. Jews symbolized all that was wrong with world to philosophers; money, materialism, and adherence to the ancient jewish god.

 

[G-Master]

For some reason, I feel I am the only one who will defend jews on this board.

No, not the only one.

 

[Volcano14]

For some reason, I feel I am the only one who will defend jews on this board. I have had nothing but good relations with them, and surprisingly Cincinnati is the worldwide center for Reform Judaism, so I guess for some reason, I have had more contact than many others. Sure they are clannish people, and there are a number of other stereotypes that in my experience are actually true; but, hell, the Greeks and Italians, and other Middle Easterners arent much different in their clannishness. Total opinion here though.

my advice to anyone talking about antisemitism and jews is to read Kevin MacDonald first. Antisemitism is basically a reaction to jewish behavior. Sometimes its violent overreaction but a reaction nonetheless. Cicero and Tacitus were antisemites so if you think about it, that what these men said in Roman times were said again in the Middle Ages and then in the 18 to 20th century, then perhaps it means the antisemites were right when they said negative things about jews as a group. You just don't carry stereotypes throughout centuries for no reason.

And MacDonald is honest enough to say that he started out as an admirer of jews and then became an antisemite when he did his research for this third book. It's in the preface :


Preface to the First Paperback Edition of The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements

Kevin MacDonald
Dept. of Psychology, California State University-Long Beach

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books-Preface.html

 

[speed]

my advice to anyone talking about antisemitism and jews is to read Kevin MacDonald first. Antisemitism is basically a reaction to jewish behavior. Sometimes its violent overreaction but a reaction nonetheless. Cicero and Tacitus were antisemites so if you think about it, that what these men said in Roman times were said again in the Middle Ages and then in the 18 to 20th century, then perhaps it means the antisemites were right when they said negative things about jews as a group. You just don't carry stereotypes throughout centuries for no reason.

And MacDonald is honest enough to say that he started out as an admirer of jews and then became an antisemite when he did his research for this third book. It's in the preface :


Preface to the First Paperback Edition of The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements

Kevin MacDonald
Dept. of Psychology, California State University-Long Beach

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books-Preface.html

I read the conclusion, and it is well, not as bad as I would have thought, but somewhat interesting.

If you want to read an interesting account of Jewish power on the European world, and done by an objective abd famous writer, who does not have a anti-semitic axe to grind, or a message about Jew's, read this by Niall Ferguson about the Rothchild's (jews) and the power they had over loaning every European power money to fight their wars: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140240845/qid=1138408082/sr=8-8/ref=pd_bbs_8/104-4423168-0327920?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

I did say this in a thread this week:

And Israel is our no. 1 enemy. Let's face it. I wont say how I know this person, but said person who I am connected to, and who is top civilian grade in Army intelligence, will tell you, that the Israelis steal all of our info and technology (there was just mention of a NSA agent selling info to the Israelis) they do not listen to us, and even worse, they make all of our efforts in the Middle East, untenable in the eyes of arabs. Having said that, I have no problems with Jews, only Israel's policies. Sure the Arabs had their horrific failures with Assad, Nasser, the Pan Arab movement, etc etc. But Israel is a thorn in our side, that we support.

 

[infoterror]

Do you believe that anti-semitism is commonplace with philosophers?

Anti-Judaism is. Judaism, as a materialist philosophy, is detestable to most philosophers.

Anti-Semitism? That's an ambiguously defined word, so I'll comment later. But most philosophers are nationalist, so they wouldn't agree with Jews being in Germany.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Why do you think that Jews prefer to call themselves Semites, when in fact most of them are of Turkish origin? The only explanation I can think of is that they want people to assume there is a blood-tie with them and the land given to them for Israel. Most Christians assume the have this claim, and it is likely that many Arabs are also unaware of the fact that only about 10% of Jews can have ancestral claim to Israel. This knowledge would surely madden the Palestinians even further.
So what is the innocent explanation, that I have overlooked?

 

[infoterror]

Why do you think that Jews prefer to call themselves Semites, when in fact most of them are of Turkish origin?

I think you nailed it: they wish to associate with the historical Jewish faith, culture and tribe.

Although Khazars are diluted, it seems many of them have a claim to genetic markers from ancient Israel. However, it seems a great deal of mixing -- -- has gone on since then.

If anything, Judaism shows us the path to which first-world nations go when they give up on moving toward ascendant ideals.

 

[infoterror]

Yes, Nietzsche would of praised the Jews for their strong bond and pride to stick to their traditions (culture, race, religion etc) even though obviously he hated Christianity which is an offshoot of Judaism.

I'll praise them for it. Zionism is National Socialism (Nazism) for Jews. I wish my own people were so vigilant, as we are about to be destroyed.

 

[Cythraul]

Cicero and Tacitus were antisemites so if you think about it, that what these men said in Roman times were said again in the Middle Ages and then in the 18 to 20th century, then perhaps it means the antisemites were right when they said negative things about jews as a group.

Perhaps it means they were right? Perhaps it means a lot of things. Your conclusion just doesn't follow.

 

[Norsemaiden]

So it could be a big coincidence why Jews have been persucuted (or prosecuted depending on how you view it) by so many societies throughout the ages? There are other groups that could have been scapegoated instead, so it's so odd that it is always the Jews.
And why was Malcolm X anti Jewish?

 

[infoterror]

And why was Malcolm X anti Jewish?

Malcolm X was a black nationalist, and is one of my heroes, along with other nationalists and ecoterrorists.

Nationalists are almost always opposed to Jews, as Jews by virtue of wanting to be present in other nations are internationalist, or the opposite of nationalist.

Jews in 1939-1945 Germany were an intruding and mostly unwanted group, much as Hispanics are today in USA. (No moral judgment on my part; simply reporting the facts.)