Presidents and what you think about them

[cookiecutter]

Try easily the worst. In essence became our only dictator, involved us in WWII, and had zero to do with winning it, not to mention his policies not only prolonged the Great Depression, but created the social program drags on the country that are still dragging on us today.

Are you aware that the US was sneak attacked by Japan and that Hitler declared war on America not the other way around? Or are you one of those people who believes FDR provoked Japan into war on purpose? If you are, the consensus of historians disagrees with you. America embargoed Japan because of their aggression towards the Asian/Pacific countries/colonies, but they never figured Japan would be stupid enough to attack a country that was so much more powerful than it.

I'm not even going to touch your dictator comment. You also have to be extremely ideologically driven by libertarian economics to really think that the New Deal worsened the Depression. The historical evidence flat out contradicts that. Seriously, Keynsian economics isn't close to perfect, but it has a pretty good historical record of working during depressions. Of course you'll disagree and this is all pointless, but I feel it has to be said.

This was due to the hardworking and puritanical nature of the average person, not because of the presidency.

This is a good point and I didn't mean to suggest it was only the presidents that made it work, but I think it is reasonable to argue that George Washington, Adams and Jefferson set some good precedents on what Presidents could and could not do. The social makeup of America was very important as well though. One needs only to look at how shitty Latin America turned out to realize that democracy was not inevitable anywhere at the time.

Reagan is highly overrated. Nixon was equally bad.

We agree on something. This is a moment to be celebrated.

FDR spent like crazy on social programs that would have driven the country into outstanding debt had it not been for WWII which helped to lift us out of it. FDR was an idealist (similar to Obama) who wanted to pay for ridiculous reform that the country couldn't afford. It's just not practical. He got lucky because of the war.

If we're criticizing Reagan for outrageous spending we might as well criticize FDR too.

It's not spending per se that I'm against, it's on what. Reagan spent on military to the expense of domestic programs. He also cut taxes which caused a massive budget deficit. I'm no math major, but I at least acknowledge that spending requires income.

Nixon, I do not believe, was as bad as many paint him. The Watergate scandal soiled his reputation and it was a stupid and irresponsible mess, that I'll agree to; but as far as his efforts as president go, he was far from the worst.

One thing that people often forget about Nixon is his use of the "Southern Strategy". Basically he use racial fears to split Southern Democrats away from the New Deal Coalition which had lasted up until then. This lowered political discourse to being more about style then substance as fearmongering replaced issues. Does this sound familiar? It's because it is almost exactly the same system we are left with today. Just look at the hysteria Obama has caused. If he was just a white center-left democrat, I don't think there would be such a crazed movement like the Tea Party bullshit. It may not be overt, but that undercurrent of racism remains.*

*Please don't take this to mean that I think all people who oppose Obama are racists. I think his race has increased the hysteria of the anti-Obama discourse though. Look at the race of every single person in Tea Party protests for example.

Sorry for the tl;dr post. I study history so this is what I do and think about.

 

[Badbird]

The "Southern Strategy" thing Nick was right on. That why shit like the Tea Party is happening right now. People like them and Krigloch can't stand having a half black president in office.

 

[cookiecutter]

It's too simplistic to reduce it to pure racism, but that's certainly part of it. Race relations in America are very complex and tied into all sorts of economic and social factors. We've come a long way, I just hope we can keep improving.

 

[Einherjar86]

One thing that people often forget about Nixon is his use of the "Southern Strategy". Basically he use racial fears to split Southern Democrats away from the New Deal Coalition which had lasted up until then. This lowered political discourse to being more about style then substance as fearmongering replaced issues. Does this sound familiar? It's because it is almost exactly the same system we are left with today. Just look at the hysteria Obama has caused. If he was just a white center-left democrat, I don't think there would be such a crazed movement like the Tea Party bullshit. It may not be overt, but that undercurrent of racism remains.

But again you're focusing on negative aspects of his presidency. I'm not trying to claim he was perfect or anything; but I disagree with you that he was one of the worst. He was far from a fucking saint, that's for sure; but you're hammering down the nails into the coffin of his domestic policy and ignoring his foreign policy which improved our relationships with China and the Soviet Union. On top of that, he was a more progressive president than most people give him credit for.

 

[Badbird]

It's better than it was a long time ago but still around in rural places.

Like one time when driving to the Georgia, we stopped in a gas station and one a bathroom wall had some writing saying " kill N*****s and J**s".

Racist people shouldn't be in this world.

 

[Mentok]

You are retarded

 

[waif]

I would say Lincoln is the most overrated president. He wasn't bad, but people make him out to be some saint who single-handedly defeated the Confederacy and freed the slaves. In my opinion he didn't really give a shit one way or the other about slavery, but felt it was a political necessity to abolish it. He also did some proto-Patriot Act shit during the Civil War. He did what was necessary to keep the union together, which is good, but in hindsight it's hard not to wonder if some of it might have been excessive.

 

[Badbird]

You are retarded

Why? Because I don't like racist people? Anyway lets get back on topic.

 

[Badbird]

I would say Lincoln is the most overrated president. He wasn't bad, but people make him out to be some saint who single-handedly defeated the Confederacy and freed the slaves. In my opinion he didn't really give a shit one way or the other about slavery, but felt it was a political necessity to abolish it. He also did some proto-Patriot Act shit during the Civil War. He did what was necessary to keep the union together, which is good, but in hindsight it's hard not to wonder if some of it might have been excessive.

Yeah people do rate him a little too high but still a fine president. I still think JFK and Reagan are the most overrated presidents.

 

[cookiecutter]

But again you're focusing on negative aspects of his presidency. I'm not trying to claim he was perfect or anything; but I disagree with you that he was one of the worst. He was far from a fucking saint, that's for sure; but you're hammering down the nails into the coffin of his domestic policy and ignoring his foreign policy which improved our relationships with China and the Soviet Union. On top of that, he was a more progressive president than most people give him credit for.

I'm aware of his relatively good foreign policy, but the way he manipulated and changed the American political landscape really bothers me. He is largely responsible for many of the negative aspects of American politics today and I will not forgive him because he was a good diplomat.

I would say Lincoln is the most overrated president. He wasn't bad, but people make him out to be some saint who single-handedly defeated the Confederacy and freed the slaves. In my opinion he didn't really give a shit one way or the other about slavery, but felt it was a political necessity to abolish it. He also did some proto-Patriot Act shit during the Civil War. He did what was necessary to keep the union together, which is good, but in hindsight it's hard not to wonder if some of it might have been excessive.

Don't forget though that Lincoln's decision to try to preserve the Union was extremely important. Before any slave freeing, he had to decide that he was not going to let the South secede. He also held his position even after the war went on longer than people thought. Had he not done this there would be a shitty, agrarian, backwards country to the south of the USA.

 

[Badbird]

I'm aware of his relatively good foreign policy, but the way he manipulated and changed the American political landscape really bothers me. He is largely responsible for many of the negative aspects of American politics today and I will not forgive him because he was a good diplomat.

.

 

[Cythraul]

You also have to be extremely ideologically driven by libertarian economics to really think that the New Deal worsened the Depression.

Could you stop being full of shit for a moment? I could just as easily say liberals are ideologically driven by Keynesian economics. There are legitimate arguments out there that support the claim that you're denying. Do your homework.

The historical evidence flat out contradicts that. Seriously, Keynsian economics isn't close to perfect, but it has a pretty good historical record of working during depressions.

Bullshit. Show us some examples and I'll show you why you're wrong.

 

[razoredge]

Im trying to understand this business about Nixon splitting the southern tier vote or however you are putting it. Seems to me Wallace must have been a player too. In fact I suspect he is still the 3rd party vote record holder or only significant 3rd party runner the country has had in recent times.

I also will never get the arms in the air over racism, the gumby whites in this country are the least rasist, racism is much stronger outside of white, dont believe me take a walk through some tuff neighborhoods someday... do the world a favor maybe you wont come back. A black or hispanic stands a far better chance in hillbilly land, worst thing that will happen would be being ignored or some unenthousiastic looks. Like CC said its very complex and far beyond what most will admit.

Carter and Ford - This is my kind of president for the most part, nothing happened, the country was the same after as it was before

The Regan years were great, its the aftermath we pay for now. Regan gave us the boom town, it looked great on current paper and lasted through Bush and Clinton, Poo Bush rode in on the tail end of the train thinking the party was still happening and what better time to kick some Iraqi ass but alas it was time to pay the piper for the boom town. It took near 30 years to catch up, it could take thirty and more to fix and I believe it will only be "fixed" with another bandaid. Eventually we will have to just let the working poor starve and become homeless, America doesnt want a working bluecollar class anymore, at least not with white faces. If they are of other colors they can justify(IGNORE) the sacrifice with do gooder attitude... "see what we did for those POOR POOR people"

Its totally fucked and this is what you younger people are inheriting.

 

[Mentok]

Why? Because I don't like racist people? Anyway lets get back on topic.

No, because you make assumptions of whole states morals based on what is written on bathroom walls.

 

[Badbird]

It was a shitty bathroom anyway... not saying everyone there is racist.

 

[Mentok]

 

[razoredge]

No, because you make assumptions of whole states morals based on what is written on bathroom walls.

Yes and writing on a bathroom wall does not equal getting knifed, beaten to death or any other action you could think of in the getto streets. Know it all whites talking "racism" have most likely had minimal exposure in the labor force or cultural environments that exist outside of thier protected burbie world, only knowing what they "believe" from liberal media sources and brainwashed by rap music... seeing is believing

 

[Badbird]

Yes and writing on a bathroom wall does not equal getting knifed, beaten to death or any other action you could think of in the getto streets. Know it all whites talking "racism" have most likely had minimal exposure in the labor force or cultural environments that exist outside of thier protected burbie world, only knowing what they "believe" from liberal media sources and brainwashed by rap music... seeing is believing

What does rap music got to do with this?

 

[Dak]

Are you aware that the US was sneak attacked by Japan and that Hitler declared war on America not the other way around? Or are you one of those people who believes FDR provoked Japan into war on purpose? If you are, the consensus of historians disagrees with you. America embargoed Japan because of their aggression towards the Asian/Pacific countries/colonies, but they never figured Japan would be stupid enough to attack a country that was so much more powerful than it.

Ther is plenty of evidence out there (although swept under the official rug) that we had plenty of fore-warning that the Japanese fleet was inbound and it was specifically ignored so we would receive a horrible attack to drag us into the war.

Also, Hitler declared war on us because we were sending aid to Britain. That is an act of war on the part of the US, whether it was declared or not. This was also intentional. But of course, this wouldn't have even been an issue if we hadn't been inolved in WWI, as there would have been no Nazi Germany.

Don't forget though that Lincoln's decision to try to preserve the Union was extremely important. Before any slave freeing, he had to decide that he was not going to let the South secede. He also held his position even after the war went on longer than people thought. Had he not done this there would be a shitty, agrarian, backwards country to the south of the USA.

This is an extremely shortsighted view. One of the main reasons Lincoln had to keep the southern states from seceding is because the South had control of many major ports as well as the mouth of the Mississippi. If they had broken off and become independent, they could have shut down the northern economy by attracting all foreign trade/denying access to the lower mississippi.

The Civil War, like all other wars, were about money/control. it had nothing to do with slavery specifically.

 

[waif]

Don't forget though that Lincoln's decision to try to preserve the Union was extremely important. Before any slave freeing, he had to decide that he was not going to let the South secede. He also held his position even after the war went on longer than people thought. Had he not done this there would be a shitty, agrarian, backwards country to the south of the USA.

As opposed to the super awesome, urban, progressive region that the south is now?
But yeah, it was obviously the defining decision of his presidency.