Shooting at Damageplan show, two band members dead

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dimebag2.jpg

R.I.P. brother.

I can't even get in a venue around here with damn spikes on my neck...how the hell did this guy get away with this? What the hell happened to the security? Sad sad man. Totally screwed up. And all you people who want to joke about this and put this guy down, have some f'in respect. I don't think that anyone deserves to die like that. I don't care who it is. Dimebag was an inspiration to many musicians and to many bands. Have some respect.
 
AjDeath said:
Respect for the shooter? I am supposed to respect someone who just murdered someone, and because I don't I am a bad person. Fuck you.

I feel an Anus-esque rant coming on.

In your view murder and death are the worst things in the world. In mine, they are not. For me, the importance is in what the man who was murdered accomplished in life, and what effect that murder will have. I don't believe in equality, thus I don't feel that everyone is equally deserving of respect in life. And death is simply an end - the moment a person dies his worth can be evaluated as a whole, and only if that worth is positive should he be given respect.

None of this "respect the dead" crap 'cause, let's be realistic, he's never going to know about it anyway. None of this "pity those close to him for their loss" either; pity and sympathy are, to me, totally unproductive. Such emotions run riot in weak minds.

Great heroes fight, if necessary, to the death for what they believe in, and such people will get great respect from me for such a thing, and I may find the beauty of such an act overwhelming enough for a form of sadness in some cases. If one of these people dies such a great death - sacrificing themselves for something that transcends the individual, it should be a glorious and triumphant day, not a day in which we mourn and grieve and pity - like death inherently causes in current society regardless of the death's form.

Someone like Quorthon has my respect for having created something I consider valuable, but I won't claim that there was any reason for him to live longer taking into account that his abilities were certainly deteriorating. How can I say that - you ask? Because I believe that death isn't something to be feared or grieved, it will happen to us all and achievment in life should easily transcend the suffering and loss that death causes. If anything, Quorthon's early death prevents him from tarnishing my opinion of him further, because he was certainly struggling and may have begun to stagnate even moreso.

It's only in a society like this one - based on ridiculous values - in which death is rejected and feared as something intrinsically 'bad' that we should try to avoid - people even feel the need to believe in an 'afterlife' because they're so desperate to avoid no longer existing. I won't bore you with going into even greater detail, but this mentality basically leads to mass degeneration and weakness. I, valuing progression and mental strength, oppose it.

You don't care about the shooter's death - and why should you - he's murdered someone whose life you valued. That's fair enough; though I could question your reasons for valuing him, I don't question your apathy towards the killer's subsequent demise. I'm personally glad that the guy died as well, indications are that he was an ass in a number of ways, and I don't think what he did has done anyone much good, really.

But if you feel that some deaths are less important than others, why can't I? Because murder and the murderer of someone YOU consider great is "objectively" bad while Dimebag's life being unimportant is just my opinion? No, there's no inherent value (ignore that I've said otherwise in the past), we can only determine what we ourselves value, and fight for them. I happen to be one of few who doesn't simply go by society's values without questioning their logic. I happen to be one of few who doesn't care about every death that happens, and refuses to pretend that he does. Hold me in contempt for that if you wish, but I'm certainly no "worse" than you.

My view is that Dimebag was unlikely to achieve anything more in his life, and has achieved little more than a host of shit music, and worship from lots of drunken incestuous rednecks and people who love looking at the shallower aspects of music. I have no reason to grieve his death, respect the man in question, or have much care about any aspect of these events, except possibly to analyse the effect they'll have on metal in general.
 
MetalAges said:
GoD you're a little out there on this issue I must say brother. Respect is earned. Shooting someone in cold blood deserves no respect in the slightest. I can pray for that person's soul but...respect is another issue. When someone gets gunned down in cold blood...whether I like the person, whether it is a person I know or not, I can only feel sad and disgusted. The fact that we have a Metal community here, and that anyone who is "Metal" knows who Dimebag is and what he has accomplished...that alone is deserving in respect, whether you liked his body of work or not. The fact that he was gunned down while performing something he loved to do... respect in the highest. Noone deserves that.

I wasn't trying to imply that the shooter deserved respect, I was implying that it's double standards for me to be condemned for being less caring about some deaths than others, when most people here are doing the same themselves in this very same thread. That condemnation suggests that murder is the ultimate objective 'evil' because human life is the ultimate objective 'good', but most people here are well aware that my worldview is quite different. I wasn't trying to cause such a fuss, but I simply don't have the same sentimental pity and hatred of death that the great majority here do. In a healthier society I feel that most people wouldn't, and in turn among other things death would become far less painful for all involved.
 
Dodens Grav said:
but I think it's pretty obvious why one would not respect the murderer equally with the victim. Especially since there is no valid motive.

Yeah, I think that had to be the stupidest thing GoD ever said.

Too bad about Dime, he was a great guitarist. Didn't exactly like a bit of the music he was involved in, but a great musician nonetheless.
 
I can actually speak from experience with the AlRosa. I snuck in the back door one time. (Nine years ago. A lot can change between then and now.) I had a ticket but never had to present it to the door staff. Security right at the stage always seemed ok. Haven't been there in many years so have no current opinion, but it does seem sad that this venue is getting "smeared".

Realistically, without musicians performing behind bulletproof, clear barriers (like the shit the Pope uses), or performing on 12-13' high stages that can't be hopped, or bands bringing in their own touring security entourages, this can't be prevented. You have stage-divers, moshers, hoes, meet & greets, and even some bands that invite fans on to the stage - somethimes against venue policy.

It was not a random act, it was a nutcase acting out.
Luckily he's been removed from the gene pool.
Thanks to Niggemeyer! Kudos to the Columbus cops.

Note: if you have been "directly affected" with "emotional harm, pain and suffering" and you can prove it (your shrink says so in writing) -- feel free to SUE the FUCK out of the shooter's family / estate. :) The suits will sink them into oblivion where they belong. There is no heaven or hell about it.
 
Atlas Shrugged said:
It is totally mind boggling that security let this prick in with a gun
From what I read earlier, he had hopped a fence (or something to that effect) and was being pursued by security, but I guess they couldn't get there in time.

Also, according to the same article, it happens "exactly 24 years" after the shooting of John Lennon.
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
I feel an Anus-esque rant coming on.

In your view murder and death are the worst things in the world. In mine, they are not. For me, the importance is in what the man who was murdered accomplished in life, and what effect that murder will have. I don't believe in equality, thus I don't feel that everyone is equally deserving of respect in life. And death is simply an end - the moment a person dies his worth can be evaluated as a whole, and only if that worth is positive should he be given respect.

None of this "respect the dead" crap 'cause, let's be realistic, he's never going to know about it anyway. None of this "pity those close to him for their loss" either; pity and sympathy are, to me, totally unproductive. Such emotions run riot in weak minds.

Great heroes fight, if necessary, to the death for what they believe in, and such people will get great respect from me for such a thing, and I may find the beauty of such an act overwhelming enough for a form of sadness in some cases. If one of these people dies such a great death - sacrificing themselves for something that transcends the individual, it should be a glorious and triumphant day, not a day in which we mourn and grieve and pity - like death inherently causes in current society regardless of the death's form.

Someone like Quorthon has my respect for having created something I consider valuable, but I won't claim that there was any reason for him to live longer taking into account that his abilities were certainly deteriorating. How can I say that - you ask? Because I believe that death isn't something to be feared or grieved, it will happen to us all and achievment in life should easily transcend the suffering and loss that death causes. If anything, Quorthon's early death prevents him from tarnishing my opinion of him further, because he was certainly struggling and may have begun to stagnate even moreso.

It's only in a society like this one - based on ridiculous values - in which death is rejected and feared as something intrinsically 'bad' that we should try to avoid - people even feel the need to believe in an 'afterlife' because they're so desperate to avoid no longer existing. I won't bore you with going into even greater detail, but this mentality basically leads to mass degeneration and weakness. I, valuing progression and mental strength, oppose it.

You don't care about the shooter's death - and why should you - he's murdered someone whose life you valued. That's fair enough; though I could question your reasons for valuing him, I don't question your apathy towards the killer's subsequent demise. I'm personally glad that the guy died as well, indications are that he was an ass in a number of ways, and I don't think what he did has done anyone much good, really.

But if you feel that some deaths are less important than others, why can't I? Because murder and the murderer of someone YOU consider great is "objectively" bad while Dimebag's life being unimportant is just my opinion? No, there's no inherent value (ignore that I've said otherwise in the past), we can only determine what we ourselves value, and fight for them. I happen to be one of few who doesn't simply go by society's values without questioning their logic. I happen to be one of few who doesn't care about every death that happens, and refuses to pretend that he does. Hold me in contempt for that if you wish, but I'm certainly no "worse" than you.

My view is that Dimebag was unlikely to achieve anything more in his life, and has achieved little more than a host of shit music, and worship from lots of drunken incestuous rednecks and people who love looking at the shallower aspects of music. I have no reason to grieve his death, respect the man in question, or have much care about any aspect of these events, except possibly to analyse the effect they'll have on metal in general.
Reality is what you make of it, make yours more positive. Also, about respect. You can at least respect the opinion of the people that you moderate instead of acting like an asshole. You show no respect to us. We show no respect to you, THAT IS REALITY.
 
This is truly one of heavy metal's saddest days. Dimebag was a legend and will be missed. I was a pretty big fan of Dimebag's guitar playing. Cowboys From Hell and Vulgar Display of Power are among my favorite metal albums of all time. I dug Far Beyond Driven but lost touch with Pantera after that one. I didn't care for DamagePlan's cd they came out with but I was excited to hear their second cd was going to be much different and I was going to give them another chance. I have been down and out with a bad virus the past week and a half and was suppose to see DamagePlan/Shadows Fall this past Saturday night but couldn't make it. I now really wish that I was feeling better at the time. This is such an unexpected thing and now I will never get a chance to see Dimebag again.

R.I.P. "Dimebag" Darrell Abbott - you will truly be missed.

Concert venues really need to start stepping shit up. The way this concert venue has been described by several people it sounds alot to me like the local Cricket Club in Irvington, NJ. If I wanted to I could probably EASILY get a gun into that place. There is a lack of security there and the security guards they have are usually complete douchebags. Back in September I almost went there to see Black Dahlia Murder (on tour with Terror, Remembering Never, and Unearth at the time). I couldn't make it because I had made other plans to go to NYC with a couple people. I find out the next day that during Terror's opening set the hardcore kids got out of control started attacking innocent people all around. There were weapons and I heard the entire place turned into a blood bath. Now if I was there I would have been targeted by these faggots. I am in no way scared of them but if enough of them ganged up on me there could have been problems. I would have been standing there in some metal t shirt having a good time mining my own business and some asshole would have decided to attack me and there would be no fucking security or such a little amount that it wouldn't even have mattered. These venues need to step shit up the most. Sure they arent the most high class but thats probably why when shit goes wrong among audience members its because they picked that venue because they know they could get away with or pull off what they want to do. This should truly be a wake up call to venue security all over the fucking place.

Also now yes I do fear that more bands will be more hesitant to tour America than they already are and this tragedy will continue to give metal a bad bad name. People are so fucking stupid.

R.I.P. - Dimebag Darrell and to the other victims killed at this horrific event.
 
AjDeath said:
Reality is what you make of it, make yours more positive. Also, about respect. You can at least respect the opinion of the people that you moderate instead of acting like an asshole. You show no respect to us. We show no respect to you, THAT IS REALITY.

You mean "more positive in my mind" rather than "more positive objectively", so you're not really making any sense. And I don't have respect for all of you, of course I don't. I've been entirely liberal with requests and suggestions etc about my moderating because in part it involves responsibility to the community on the board, and I don't intend on abusing my moderation in any way. That doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to have exactly the same views as everyone here. I'm aware that I've created a bit of a flamewar here and it was probably a mistake, though I think some people were simply misinterpreting what I meant when I brought the shooter into this. Also: I never asked for your respect, or expected it.
 
Concert venues really need to start stepping shit up.
Concert venues shouldn't need to do shit. The last thing your country needs (cue "hey euronigger what do YOU know about what the US needs?") is to become any more of a police state with guards and surveillance and security checks every-fucking-where. Get your basic shit together in a broader sense to the point where you don't NEED to fear for your life when performing music on a stage instead.
 
What the hell. they are selling a dimebag pick for $46. It doesn't even say that Dimebag used it.

Guardian of Darkness said:
That said, I'm not sure if his death is a particularly good thing as I weigh up the pros and cons.

WTF? What are the pros?

And about the getting in with a gun thing. I know that at the club I go to to see shows it woudl be extremely easy to get a gun in. They don't check you and there are no metal detectors or anything.
 
Melodeath said:
WTF? What are the pros?
.

It could've been symbolising a battle against the "scene" of beer-swilling oh-so-hardcore "metalheads", which is something I certainly oppose. But it wasn't, and there's plenty of reasons why this is a pretty pointless, counter-productive and annoying event.
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
It could've been symbolising a battle against the "scene" of beer-swilling oh-so-hardcore "metalheads", which is something I certainly oppose. But it wasn't, and there's plenty of reasons why this is a pretty pointless, counter-productive and annoying event.

I could just go along with all the others, tell you what a fucking cock you are, but you're already reared up in defense mode, so I'm not throwing any punches.

What I will do is give you some advice:

I know there's probably not a lot of meaning in your life. Probably few people you keep close to you, not many 'goals', nothing you'd miss if you were gone. Which is why you commit every fiber of your being to emracing cold, self-sufficient Black Metal ideology, and why you so vehementy oppose any style in which the musicians seem to be having 'fun'. Because you're not having any fun.

Well, I gotta tell you... it's bullshit. It's an act, a costume to wear along with the corpse paint. Your heros have fucking dayjobs and wives.

We will all die some day, and as far as I know nobody's coming back. This is all we have, there's nothing afterwards, so love it. Embrace life, because you will die, and mourn death, to pay tribute to your continuing existance.

NOW, GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD! A KIND MAN WHO WISHED NO ILL WILL ON ANYONE, WHO NEVER WANTED ANYTHING BUT TO MAKE PEOPLE HAPPY ANY WAY HE COULD, WHO IN FACT MADE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE JUST BY BEING IN IT, IS FUCKING DEAD AT THE HANDS OF A LIFE-HATING PRICK LIKE YOURSELF!

PAY YOUR FUCKING RESPECTS!!!!
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
Someone like Quorthon has my respect for having created something I consider valuable, but I won't claim that there was any reason for him to live longer taking into account that his abilities were certainly deteriorating.

...

If anything, Quorthon's early death prevents him from tarnishing my opinion of him further, because he was certainly struggling and may have begun to stagnate even moreso.

If I'm reading this correctly, a musician should live or die based upon your opinion of him? After you've seen someone at their best, by your logic, they have no more reason to live and should just die before they eventually get worse and tarnish your opinion of them? So people's lives are just toys to you? When you get bored with it, just throw it out? There's a difference between believing life is nothing sacred or precious and believing that all humans should die after they used up their worth.

-Kronikle
 
Erik said:
Concert venues shouldn't need to do shit. The last thing your country needs (cue "hey euronigger what do YOU know about what the US needs?") is to become any more of a police state with guards and surveillance and security checks every-fucking-where. Get your basic shit together in a broader sense to the point where you don't NEED to fear for your life when performing music on a stage instead.
Word. This is what a culture obsessed with violence and guns produces. But instead, it's going to be blamed on EVAL HEVY METHUL MYOOZIK.

GoD, I thought you were outgrowing that tr00er-than-thou thing. :erk: You and Clanny, man, you and Clanny. It's fine if you don't care, but don't make it out to be a good thing and get out of this "one-man war against booze and bullet belts" image you're absorbing. Nobody cares.
 
Lol, this has been an entertaining thread.

I'm going to have to back up GoD's point of views. Just because you (the general populace here) as metalhead's feel saddened does not imply that you should force GoD to feel as you do.

Why respect someone you don't like? I'm sure if Osama/Saddam was killed many of you would be celebrating. You probably don't like them, so why respect them? They have done nothing to earn your respect. Now to relate that to 'Dimebag's' death, why should he be granted respect now, ONLY because died?
I see no reason for GoD to mourn or necessarily celebrate. From what I've read, he is doing neither. He did point out that we as humans can become very attached to another human and the norm is to cry/feel sad when they die. He also said that when warriors died, they died honourable with purpose. Not that we should celebrate because they are dead, but celebrate because what the warrior did was worthwhile. Likewise, if the warrior did nothing worthile (such as, in GoD's eyes: Dimebag did nothing worthwhile) then GoD has no reason to celebrate the deeds of the warrior's life.



Ask yourself this, Was Dimebag killed doing something he enjoyed?

Now ask yourself this, Will you die doing something you enjoyed?

Many answers to the latter will be no (succinctly). Many of us will die in old age; decrepit, partially senile and had our fair share of painful diseases as well as emotional pain from many 'loved' ones dying.
Not exactly a pleasant way to die if you ask me. I would rather die doing something I enjoy, doesn't mean it will happen.
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
I'm sick of people who whinge about respecting the dead even when said dead guy wasn't respectful in life.
Dude...the guy's dead. He died young, and didn't do anything to deserve death. Even if he wouldn't have accomplished anything more musically, he could have accomplished things in his personal life,

I do feel bad for the shooter. I think he deserved to die for killing people. But he must have had a pretty pathetic life if Pantera breaking up pushed him to murder.

On the other hand, he died doing something he (presumably) enjoyed and it sounds like he died quickly. There's no reason for you to be effected emotionally by his death.
 
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