Song Length vs Quality

[ditches]

Turn on the radio and you're likely to hear some overproduced pile of cheesy mindless pop garbage. These songs run between three and four minutes long- and even the vast majority of that is repeated ad nauseum.

Get an average metal band and the songs increase in both complexity and length. The five to seven minute songs have more *per minute*, which makes them that much better.

With Opeth (and Green Carnation, yay!), songs tend to START at eight minutes long and go up from there (not counting the mini-songs like Madrigal).

How important is this to Opeth's appeal? Does Mikael need to reign it in, or should he let the band 'progress' even more in their songs?


Discuss! And enjoy my new sig! Love it as if it were your firstborn.

 

[Ermz]

I think song length should only be limited to how much certain artist feels necessary to incorporate all the segments they want in it. Song length doesn't bother me, however I feel that a large majority of the time the larger songs have alot more happening, tend to not be as repetitive and are alot more epic in scale, which I admire more... however songs like For Absent Friends and Madrigal are very welcome, because even as interludes I think it's possible to get alot out of them.

 

[Shadowthrone]

I generally tend to prefer long songs myself. It allows for more things to occur within one song, and for different aspects and emotions to be well developed and displayed within one piece. Long songs just tend to have an epic(yeah, everyone uses this word but it fits so well) feel to them.

Short songs don't tend to have as much, if any, variation or developments.

(Wonders why he didn't just turn around and tell you this in person.....while admiring his "firstborn.")

 

[Timmy]

Long songs are definitely good, in Opeth's case anyway. I wouldn't have in any other way. After listening to Opeth so much, Verse-Chorus type songs tend to sound almost a bit contrived in comparison... not that they can't be fun sometimes

However, honestly, Opeth occasionally do drag on ideas a bit more than necessary. Certain parts in various songs in Deliverance drag on a bit long, and i'm just waiting for the next riff to come along.
The piano intro and heavy outro to A Fair Judgement were way too long... a lot of the time I just go for fast forward when i get to them ... sad but true
Same thing with bits of Wreath.... Deliverance... By the pain i see in others

 

[Ghost Tears]

Depending on how good the band is at keeping your attention. If the band is playing boring and uninspired riffs then a long song could be hell.But in Opeth's case that isnt a problem except for the last riff or so in Deliverance just seems to go on forever.

 

[Demonspell]

Whoever said that less is more never heard prog. That should make my stance on this subject clear, although I agree that too many bands have songs of extraneous length that clumsily incorporate undeveloped ideas that don't logically fit the song, or result in repetition or aimlessness...one band that rhymes with fool is especially guilty of this...

 

[Ghost Tears]

hmmmmm........

I think TOOL rhymes with fool.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Song length only works against those bands who can't create music. A three minute song can be as wonderful as a ten minute song, although pulling off the longer songs while keeping the audiences attention is an artform.

Opeth has perfected this artform.

 

[Hexxan]

long songs are cool, but it dont mean that all short songs are pointless, theres loads of songs under 4 mins that are still decent. but yes, i do prefer the longer ones

 

[COnsiderateApathy]

Depending on how good the band is at keeping your attention. If the band is playing boring and uninspired riffs then a long song could be hell.But in Opeth's case that isnt a problem except for the last riff or so in Deliverance just seems to go on forever.

Am I the only person who thinks that outro riff to the song 'Deliverance' is pure genius? I love the way it builds and adds with each repetition. And then, at the end, it leaves you teetering on a precipice...

It's one of my favorite parts of the album, and it was MASSIVE when they played it live.


NP: Sonata Arctica - 'Gravenimage'

 

[Djm]

Both songs of shorter and longer length have their place. Short songs can seem a bit forced and contrived, while longer songs can meander and get repetitive.

BTW, I love the outro riff on Deliverance, too, but some days I feel like it gets long, and some days I wish it could go on forever.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Am I the only person who thinks that outro riff to the song 'Deliverance' is pure genius? I love the way it builds and adds with each repetition. And then, at the end, it leaves you teetering on a precipice...

It's one of my favorite parts of the album, and it was MASSIVE when they played it live.


NP: Sonata Arctica - 'Gravenimage'

Best outro I've ever heard.

 

[RogueSpirit]

Turn on the radio and you're likely to hear some overproduced pile of cheesy mindless pop garbage. These songs run between three and four minutes long- and even the vast majority of that is repeated ad nauseum.

There's actually some good stuff on the radio, if you don't listen to a band simply due to the radio there's a problem. 3-4 minutes should be enough time for a band to get in the main themes in without too much repetition or disjointedness. Don't overgeneralize here TOO much...

Get an average metal band and the songs increase in both complexity and length. The five to seven minute songs have more *per minute*, which makes them that much better.

With Opeth (and Green Carnation, yay!), songs tend to START at eight minutes long and go up from there (not counting the mini-songs like Madrigal).

Complexity and length do NOT add up to good music. A simple, short song can work just as well if it gets its point across. And your standard straight-ahead metal band usually has song lengths of 3-4 minutes plus a linear/repeating structure. Opeth and GC are NOT even close to a straight-ahead metal band.

Besides, if you want complex and long pieces, classical and jazz are much better at this.

How important is this to Opeth's appeal? Does Mikael need to reign it in, or should he let the band 'progress' even more in their songs?


Discuss! And enjoy my new sig! Love it as if it were your firstborn.

Again, progression is not about long songs. Mikael should write songs with a length that fits the themes needed to be covered/explored (actually - he should write them however the hell he wants to...but that's a different point). Complexity is part of Opeth's appeal, but let's not forget that BWP/Deliverance picked up more fans and it was simpler compared to the rest of their catalogue. This time around I think Deliverance's songs were much too long, adding in parts that didn't fit or repeating parts too often.

 

[O'blivion]

i don't think any absolute correlation can be made between song length and song quality, although it would appear that on average, lengthier songs are of higher quality than songs with standard lengths.
in Opeth's case, i find BRI and IMSWS to be their worst songs, and they happen to be their longest songs.

 

[squeemu]

Am I the only person who thinks that outro riff to the song 'Deliverance' is pure genius?

I didn't like it so much at first. Now I think it's absolutely amazing.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Opeth songs start at 8 minutes? They tend to be great all the way through.

And yup, the Deliverance outro is great.

 

[Greenwater_Pond]

Quality increases with the time length of songs I think. Most metal songs are around 4:30-5:00 already, and I cite bands like Opeth with an average time of 9:00 per song, and specific songs like Dream Theater's Change of Seasons as being of an extremely high quality which is worth the length.

This is why I can not stand grindcore as well, most songs from the bands I've heard are about 1:30-2:30.

 

[ditches]

Lot to reply to here...

"Don't overgeneralize here TOO much..."

I'm referring specifically to pop music. Yes, there is some good stuff on the radio; to say otherwise would be stupid.

"Mikael should write songs with a length that fits the themes needed to be covered/explored"

WE HAVE A WINNER! I was mainly looking for a way to express this sentiment and you nailed it. Good job, RogueSpirit!

"Opeth songs start at 8 minutes? They tend to be great all the way through."

8 minutes in length, not that the first 8 minutes suck.

"This is why I can not stand grindcore as well, most songs from the bands I've heard are about 1:30-2:30."

So you'd prefer an Anal Cunt song that lasted 15 minutes?

 

[squarenothing66]

What I can say is simply this. Opeth is the perfect of example of taking the whole length of a song, and making it as close to perfect as possible. Nothing gets boring, and it certainly does not get old. This is the one quality that has helped Opeth become one of the best metal bands on the scene, and I know that they will continue to progress in this direction.

By the way, I have to include saying that the outro to Deliverance kicks ass. Wow, what a great headbanging section!

 

[ProgMetalFan]

Whoever said that less is more never heard prog. That should make my stance on this subject clear, although I agree that too many bands have songs of extraneous length that clumsily incorporate undeveloped ideas that don't logically fit the song, or result in repetition or aimlessness...one band that rhymes with fool is especially guilty of this...

Of course, I agree with you.