(Sub) Genres defined by lyrics?

[SonOfNun]

I was reading these two threads about Viking Metal...:

https://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/threads/the-viking-metal-artform-roundtable-banter.106228/

https://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum...-heathen-folk-celtic-metal-must-haves.217732/

...and it seems like Viking, Pagan, and sometimes Folk are used fairly interchangeably by people (especially the first two). The Folk category seems to have more to do with musical style, with Pagan being a bit more amorphous, and Viking seeming to have little to do with musical style.

In those threads people were throwing out Bathory, Enslaved, Turisas, Windir, Falkenbach, Amon Amarth, Scald, Doomsword, etc. together.

So how many of these categories (Viking, Pagan, Folk, Celtic, etc.) do you consider to be actual (sub) genres and what defines them? Is Viking Metal a real sub-genre defined only by lyrics and including groups as diverse as Falkenbach, Amon Amarth, and Scald?

I was thinking about this also in conjunction with "Christian metal" because it's separated into a "genre" of sorts by lyrics. I don't think that I care for classifying the variety of bands with Christian themes as a genre or sub-genre when those bands span literally every musical style within metal. That tag is applied unevenly and often without regard for whether the bands describe themselves this way. Many who are Christians or have Christian themes don't associate with a Christian "scene" or consider themselves a Christian band. Some try to escape that label simply for the great wall of segregation it throws up around their music. It's partially the fault of some Christians who intended their music to be an alternative to secular bands or who saw it as a "ministry." But it's also partially due to the the almost puritanical desire of so many metalheads to avoid anything with any tinge of Christianity (except in a few "acceptable" circumstances).

Do we classify Trouble as Christian Metal? Opprobrium? Forsaken? Place of Skulls? Reverorum ib Malacht? The last two W.A.S.P. albums? Impelllitteri? Realm? Viking? Helloween's "Keeper" albums? Some early Saint Vitus songs? Etc., Etc.

I suppose it also raises the issue of "Black Metal." Is any satanic band Black Metal, is it the bands with a certain musical style that are also satanic, or is Black Metal only a style of music?

Most of this is academic and some may not care, but I find these questions interesting and they are something to talk about. Feel free to tackle any part of this that you want.

 

[Doom]

I don't really think it's helpful to classify bands by what lyrics they write as on the whole, I don't think people seek out and listen to bands purely on this basis.

"Christian metal" could be an edge case here, but I've never met someone who is so into Vikings that they listen to bands with lyrics about Vikings regardless of what sound they have.

 

[SonOfNun]

I agree that it's generally not helpful. I suppose what I'm asking is do people consider Viking Metal or Christian Metal actual (sub) genres? If yes, then it would seem that it's a genre based entirely on lyrics because the bands generally placed into those categories vary tremendously in musical style. The traditional (sub) genres like Death and Thrash seem to be defined by very clear musical features (although there are also popular lyrical tropes). Is Viking Metal a real (sub) genre?

 

[einride]

viking metal is a real musical genre, despite the stupid name, and is not solely defined by lyrics

bathory "twilight of the gods" is barely about vikings or nordic myth at all but is one of the defining works that established the genre

there is no other genre label that will comfortably fit "hammerheart" or "valdr galga" or "magni blandinn og megintiri" so, well, viking metal it is

 

[einride]

i will also make clear that despite they themselves using the label for their own music at one point, enslaved does not play viking metal in any real sense except in particular instances ("793")

(old) enslaved is what would be known as "pagan metal" in modern usage, id est musically predominantly black metal but it is about odin instead of satan

so "pagan metal" is not really a musical genre, but defined entirely by not lyrics exactly, but by world-view/religion/ideology/philosophy

examples:
* enslaved
* astrofaes
* graveland

 

[einride]

christian metal is a very helpful label so the rest of us know which bands to ignore completely and never give a chance under any circumstances

much like many of the folks on the other team dismiss the 99% as "secular music"

it's all the devil's music anyway and definitely has moral corruption embedded in its dna regardless of what you put in the lyrics sheet so enjoy eternal damnation folks, the deceiver is smarter than you give him credit for

 

[einride]

folk metal is a legit musical genre too, but it's a tough one because it is almost like three completely separate things that have the same label applied to it

* skyclad's "the wayward sons of mother earth" is the first real folk metal album. it's basically english folk rock (fairport convention, steeleye span, the pentangle, etc) meets speed metal. some bands have built upon this but it's fairly rare because most modern "folk metal" is of the bm-derived kind:

* and then later there was a distinct movement where nordic bands like ulver and bak de syv fjell took nordic black metal and removed most of the black and some of the metal and replaced them with nordic folk melodies. other bands that aren't nordic did the same but with their local folk music, i.e. zpoan vtenz, moonspell, etc. this is very good shit that should not be confused with the very bad shit:

* modern "folk metal" which is a bunch of russian and german LARP assholes with flutes who can all go fuck themselves. this cesspool of garbage crosses over into viking metal, the other two really don't.

 

[SonOfNun]

viking metal is a real musical genre, despite the stupid name, and is not solely defined by lyrics

bathory "twilight of the gods" is barely about vikings or nordic myth at all but is one of the defining works that established the genre

there is no other genre label that will comfortably fit "hammerheart" or "valdr galga" or "magni blandinn og megintiri" so, well, viking metal it is

(old) enslaved is what would be known as "pagan metal" in modern usage, id est musically black metal but it is about odin instead of satan

so "pagan metal" is not really a musical genre, but defined entirely by not lyrics exactly, but by world-view/religion/ideology/philosophy

OK, I think this is generally helpful to make some distinctions between the two and give them some reasonable basis for existence as (sub) genres. I was recently listening to Enslaved and Falkenbach and see the distinction you're making. What are the musical elements that distinguish Viking Metal?

* modern "folk metal" which is a bunch of russian and german LARP assholes with flutes who can all go fuck themselves. this cesspool of garbage crosses over into viking metal, the other two really don't.

Do you think that this is where most of the confusion comes from (such as we saw in the threads I cited above)? Also, are people who call Amon Amarth or Scald Viking Metal just being daft and should really classify those as (Melodic) Death Metal and Epic Doom Metal respectively (that happen to talk about Viking stuff)?

christian metal is a very helpful label so the rest of us know which bands to ignore completely and never give a chance under any circumstances

much like many of the folks on the other team dismiss the 99% as "secular music"

it's all the devil's music anyway and definitely has moral corruption embedded in its dna regardless of what you put in the lyrics sheet so enjoy eternal damnation folks, the deceiver is smarter than you give him credit for

I really don't get offended when people think this way because, as you've noted, there are people on the "other side" that think the same way. Remember though that the people who do this are practically all evangelical Protestants whose silly mindset in this regard also causes them to throw away 90% of actual Christianity and label it as "idolatry" or some such nonsense.

As someone who has run in both circles though, I can say with certainty that the Christians who go to this extreme are a much smaller proportion of the whole than the "secular" metalheads who choose to completely ostracize anything with Christian themes. A majority of Christians who listen to metal will listen to anything or will listen to a lot of things but set specific boundaries for themselves without dismissing "secular" metal as a whole. I personally do not listen to anything satanic because I am ideologically opposed to that message. That's why I don't criticize metalheads who are genuinely, thoughtfully opposed to Christianity on an ideological level and refuse to listen to bands that have positive Christian themes as a result of that. What I don't understand is the very large crowd of people who say that lyrics/wordview, etc. don't matter to them but ignore bands with Christian lyrics even though some of them are very good musically.

Having said all of that, it still doesn't resolve the fact that "Christian Metal" doesn't seem to be a meaningful "genre" in any reasonable sense of that word. A tag to decide to listen or not listen to bands maybe, but a genre? If so, it still raises the questions I raised above about who fits into this supposed genre and why because most of the bands I mentioned above (and more) would have to be looked at as being "Christian Metal" or having had "Christian Metal" albums or songs at some point.

 

[einride]

OK, I think this is generally helpful to make some distinctions between the two and give them some reasonable basis for existence as (sub) genres. I was recently listening to Enslaved and Falkenbach and see the distinction you're making. What are the musical elements that distinguish Viking Metal?

i think of viking metal as basically manowar seen through a black metal lens, with wagnerian bombast and often lots of synths

melodies are often vaguely influenced by nordic folk music but the emphasis is firmly on the epic, not on the folk

Do you think that this is where most of the confusion comes from (such as we saw in the threads I cited above)? Also, are people who call Amon Amarth or Scald Viking Metal just being daft and should really classify those as (Melodic) Death Metal and Epic Doom Metal respectively (that happen to talk about Viking stuff)?

yes, i think so, but with a little asterisk above scald because i think the musical style owes a bit to hammerheart etc. even though it is clearly primarily doom metal

amon amarth is just a melodic death metal band with a very one-sided lyrical schtick. i mean, no one calls unleashed viking metal but they have spent almost their entire career doing death metal about vikings

Having said all of that, it still doesn't resolve the fact that "Christian Metal" doesn't seem to be a meaningful "genre" in any reasonable sense of that word. A tag to decide to listen or not listen to bands maybe, but a genre? If so, it still raises the questions I raised above about who fits into this supposed genre and why because most of the bands I mentioned above (and more) would have to be looked at as being "Christian Metal" or having had "Christian Metal" albums or songs at some point.

christian metal is not a genre, it is just a descriptor of lyrical themes, but it is a necessary special case

pagan metal, which i talked about earlier, is kind of a parallel but is halfway between "real genre" and "just a lyrical descriptor" because it does mean something musical as well

so because black metal is at least partially ideologically defined, "pagan metal" was needed as a way to talk about music that is musically black metal but does not subscribe to actual satanism -- actually by all rights burzum and others should be here rather than under black metal but... it's complicated and some bands get grandfathered in for historical reasons

likewise, because metal as a whole is at least partially ideologically defined as opposed to christianity, "christian metal" was needed (by both sides) as a divider

 

[Ellestin]

There's nothing left to do but bow meekly to Erik's demonstration. I'll just say that to me the terminologies are mostly functional ties that instinctively spring from the primary point of contact, which is atmosphere rather than lyrics. There is a subjective dimension to this but informed by empiricism. Zpoan Vtenz is awesome (as is Poccolus with - I think - common members). And fuck jollyfolk in BM.

 

[einride]

this is clearly all a fucking mess and is exactly what metal-archives attempted to solve when they put separate fields for "genre" and "lyrical themes"

so in their database, astrofaes, for instance, is "black metal" but with lyrical themes "Heathenism, Heritage, Nature, Universe"

"pagan metal" is a shortcut to refer to the above without quite so many words and also to sidestep ever having to call non-satanic music black metal because euronymous might make anti-you flyers if you do


rateyourmusic solved it by having primary (belongs-to) and secondary (influenced-by) genre markers, so for instance, scald:
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/scald/will-of-gods-is-a-great-power/
it is a doom metal album with viking metal influence. which i agree with.


but almost everyone at this point agrees that viking metal at least is a legit and separate genre

 

[SonOfNun]

i think of viking metal as basically manowar seen through a black metal lens, with wagnerian bombast and often lots of synths

melodies are often vaguely influenced by nordic folk music but the emphasis is firmly on the epic, not on the folk

yes, i think so, but with a little asterisk above scald because i think the musical style owes a bit to hammerheart etc. even though it is clearly primarily doom metal

amon amarth is just a melodic death metal band with a very one-sided lyrical schtick. i mean, no one calls unleashed viking metal but they have spent almost their entire career doing death metal about vikings

Thanks, I care about stuff like this so I appreciate some thoughtful consideration.

likewise, because metal as a whole is at least partially ideologically defined as opposed to christianity, "christian metal" was needed (by both sides) as a divider

I think this is a historical development rather than something intrinsic. If you look at Black Sabbath's early lyrics the most prominent theme is the exploration of good versus evil. Evil is often personified by the devil. Sabbath clearly believes in God (conceptualized as the Christian God) and warns against evil and the devil. These lyrical themes persisted in Doom Metal with many bands (especially in the foundational era) speaking positively of Christianity (Trouble, Saint Vitus, etc.) or from a position deeply influenced by Christian spirituality and ethics. It seems that as metal became more sonically extreme that bands also pushed the envelope lyrically whether to curate an "extreme" image or because of legitimate distaste for Christianity. These early extreme metal bands became more influential (while Doom Metal lived on the fringes) and seem to have shifted the relationship between Christianity and metal in a more negative direction (probably by the mid 80s).

This, in turn, provoked a reaction from Christians (mostly those who were not involved in metal at that point) because of the whole "satanic panic" etc. Some good music came from this, but there were also drastically negative consequences. As I mentioned above, some of these bands intentionally set themselves up as an alternative to similar "secular" bands and because many of them were evangelical Protestants they also had this strange notion that they were creating "worship" music and engaging in ministry instead of just making music that reflected their influences and convictions. I think this is when Christian themes stopped just being another lyrical theme that co-existed with others and this wall of separation went up (driven both by Christians who entered the scene for the above reasons and the metalheads who reacted negatively to them).

So I generally agree with the conclusion that the majority of people on "both sides" came to see the label as a necessary divider at some point. There was a time, however, when Christian spirituality was either integral or at least considered a normal and acceptable thing for a band to write about. I honestly think we are starting to get to a point where there is more interpenetration because of the quality of the music on both sides (although each individual, of course, has their boundaries).

this is clearly all a fucking mess and is exactly what metal-archives attempted to solve when they put separate fields for "genre" and "lyrical themes"

so in their database, astrofaes, for instance, is "black metal" but with lyrical themes "Heathenism, Heritage, Nature, Universe"

"pagan metal" is a shortcut to refer to the above without quite so many words and also to sidestep ever having to call non-satanic music black metal because euronymous might make anti-you flyers if you do

I think this is a good way of approaching it. The only problem is that MA runs on user submissions so you still get people labeling bands as "Pagan Black Metal" with Paganism as a lyrical theme (look at Moonsorrow and Havukruunu).

 

[einride]

I think this is a historical development rather than something intrinsic. If you look at Black Sabbath's early lyrics the most prominent theme is the exploration of good versus evil. Evil is often personified by the devil. Sabbath clearly believes in God (conceptualized as the Christian God) and warns against evil and the devil.

i don't buy it

i mean if you want to claim that a band who had a huge inverted cross in the gatefold of their first album, and who fully embodied the rock n roll hedonist lifestyle by drinking and fucking and smoking anything they could get their hands on, is a band "deeply influenced by christian spirituality and ethics" just because they also did "after forever" in some drug-fueled haze and wore big ass crucifixes around their necks, then be my guest, but that's a pretty small straw you're clutching at there imo

to me, it's all just for show and means nothing, either when they flirt with satan or god. it's imagery to help communicate the horror and doom and gloom and victorian graveyard atmosphere. this is what all the other doom bands hung on to.

the cross around the neck in the stock graveyard doom metal band photo is fashion. it means nothing to most of these people. it's like when rob halford brought leather from the underground london gay scene to heavy metal and everyone started copying judas priest. am i gay because i wear a leather biker jacket?

black sabbath predates metal formulating a well-defined ideological backdrop, but even then it came from rock 'n' roll and the blues which were clearly seen at the time as antithetical to and rebelling against christian values. christians weren't wrong when they were burning elvis presley records. rock'n'roll *DID* symbolize and embody the downfall of christian morals. was elvis a christian? so he would claim, but he did the devil's work.

I think this is a good way of approaching it. The only problem is that MA runs on user submissions so you still get people labeling bands as "Pagan Black Metal" with Paganism as a lyrical theme (look at Moonsorrow and Havukruunu).

i think metal-archives now thinks that "pagan black metal"/"pagan metal" is a musical genre and implies more than just philosophy. i think this is a mistake because it will inevitably lead to the following:

genre: pagan metal
lyrical themes: christianity

and i think even you will agree that is nonsense. pagan means something. it means that you subscribe to a certain spectrum of world-views and it is antithetical to christianity. you're can be either pagan or christian, you cannot be both.

this is the same mistake they did in the 80's when they called black metal black metal instead of satanic metal. if it was still called "satanic metal" then folks would have to call their bands "christian satanic metal"

 

[Krilons Resa]

am i gay because i wear a leather biker jacket?

yes, of course.

but are you lying?

 

[Krilons Resa]

The answer to all this mumbo-jumbo, like most things in life, can be encapsulated in a mere two words "It depends."

 

[einride]

yes, of course.

but are you lying?

you know it pal

 

[Ellestin]

"It depends."

on what?

 

[Krilons Resa]

on what?

It depends.

 

[einride]

what is it?

 

[NAD]