The definite, new "How Do You Feel" Thread

[King Chaos]

war is your country sending troops to a distant land and having all the cassualties and destruction happen there, and terrorism is when it happens at home?

War is when military conflicts. It was soldiers against soldiers... with warning that they were coming in, and funnily enough it could have been prevented.

Terrorism is when some dudes slip in the back door and decide to randomly blow up a bunch of completely innocent civilians. People getting on with their everyday lives. I'm sorry that I see a little difference and I'm sorry it offends you so. But fuck off yeah? If war did happen on our turf it wouldn't be faught in the London underground.

 

[King Chaos]

no I won't you little emotional wreck

I have friends in London too and I care about what happened. But you have no right to tell people off for "having this discussion" and accusing others of being apathetic about what happened in your country, when you have been apathetic about what happened in others, too. Double standards if I ever saw some.

I'm sure I just explained why it's not double standards.
I protested when they were going to war in Iraq, 6 months earlier than when it became trendy to do so. I dont like war and I dont like terrorism. Tsunamis? shit happens. the plannet is unstable. sorry for your losses. alright?

I have no right to tell people off, ok... but I don't really see myself telling anyone off, but if you do, then Instead I'll ask: it's only just fucking happened, and there's a really fucking weird atmosphere around here. I'm taken a back by it, so hold off the political debate for a day or so, please? Just have a little discrepency. I don't want to hear people saying "the UK probably deserved it". The 19 year old kid who had her legs blown off on the way to school, who could have been anyone, probably didn't deserve it.

 

[Dark_Jester]

What I find especially scary is how many racist tendencies people reveal in situations like that. CoB fans may never have been the brightest, but several people are suggesting to throw every arab out of the UK.
I know it's a controversial subject, but the war on Iraq remains an international crime, the reasons are doubtful and backed up by constructed evidence. Sure there are positive aspects, but one fact is that the civilian casualties were between 8.000 and 10.000, so why isnt anyone putting himself in their shoes? Now London is under attack and everyone like "Boohoo, boohoo..". This is what living in Bagdad feels like for over a year now thanks to the mess the US has created
Im in no way defending terrorism but it makes me sick to see people weigh things on different scales

Taliesin & fireangel: But people do weigh things on different scales, based on personal proximity. People are more affected by what happens to people they know or who are close to them exactly because it is to people they know. Like someone said (paraphrasing), the death of a friend is tragic, the death of 10 people can be upsetting, the deaths of 10,000 in another place a statistic. Yes, Iraq may be a mess, and people may be dying there, and that is regretable and upsets me (although not to the same extent as if someone close to me was seriously injured or killed). Yet, which pain and suffering do you think will have more of an impact on people in Iraq? That of the people in remote London, or those in their street? Humans quanitfy and qualify every aspect of their lives, and in this respect, this is no different.

It seems pretty fucked up that you're choosing to have this debate right now. The fact is people don't often come to my country and start annhilating men women and children. Taliesin, do you think When the US or the UK go to Iraq, they bomb the shit out of civilians in the main cities? Like it or not it was on the agenda to help the civilians in Iraq, some said it was freeing them. War is war, and it should not be mixed up with terrorism. Distant members of my family are down in London, I have many friends in london and my friends have many friends in London. I dont have many friends in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Be as apathetic as you want, I couldn't care less. But personally this sort of heinous attack aimed at perfectly innocent civilians strikes a bit of a chord with me. Still, I'm not gonna start pointing fingers or saying "Bomb all Islam"... cos it won't solve anything, but nor will their stratergies.

No it won't. 'Cos I've already made it clear my concern is that I know people who are in London. Plus a tsunami is a natural disaster. If I died by natures smiting then I wouldn't be bitter in my grave. This is people killing people though. If some guy blew me up because he was upset about what some governments are doing, I'd be very very bitter in my grave.

An example, I remember being even more upset and emotionally hit by the attack on the world trade centres. I didn't know anyone in Newyork at the time though, but it was the terrorist principal that outraged me.

Oh and by the way. FUCK OFF!

Whereas this is at the opposite end of the scale - human suffering is upsetting when it's about people I care about. Perhaps your comments about events in South-east Asia were callous, given that people did know people who suffered there, which upset them, but in essence you dismissed their care about the situation. Why then, do you feel upset when people dismiss yours?

Thing is, terrible things happen to people on a daily basis, and humanity cannot bear the weight of it all upon their backs, especially the ones that they are not responsible for. To give aid where one can, to sympathise with the victims, to realise that all life is with merit is what is important, not to dismiss other people's tragedies as unimportant, or to base judgements on who happens to be suffering more or who suffers for longer.

 

[Northern Lights]

@firangel: The conflicts in Ireland and Spain that you mentioned have been going on for decades; by now people have gotten used to them, almost to the point of opening the newspaper, reading about a bombing in either of those countries, shaking their heads and thinkingg "ah, those crazy ETA/IRA again". One of the reasons people may seem to care less about that than, say, a sudden terrorist attack is because these things have been going on for so long, and they will probably never end. People have just given up. It's become something you live with.
As for Turkey; like I said, it's about being able to connect. The countryside of Turkey is, especially when it comes to human and women rights, centuries behind western Europe. Western europeans can't possibly understand how a villager deep down in darkest Turkey thinks, or why he lives the way he does, upkeeping the traditions he does. Since they're mostly very devout muslims, too, this widens the gap.
As for the Sellafield accident, as far as I know that happened several months ago, only officials kept a lid on it. I have not read any more on how much actually leaked or how much was damaged, but I'm fairly sure that if it was indeed another Chernobyl we would've known - if even the Soviets with their renowned silence couldn't keep that one quiet, how could the British?

 

[marduk1507]

@KC: First of all, Im truly sorry for what happened. Yeah, I know what you mean, Gavin, I am with you - its like in Life of Brian (pardon me for choosing this example, but Pythons have always helped me in hard times), when Judith comes to those leaders of PFJ and yells at them that Brain is being crucified and their only answer is "well, this calls for an immediate discussion!" or sthing like that. Like, wtf?, what do you want to discuss, its just happened, people were blown to pieces! I get you. BUT, I guess nobody here wants to discuss this just for the sake of it, it hasnt probably crossed your mind, but talking about it here is imo also showing that we care. I mean, what else can we do? This is not some bullshit left-wing salloon debate, its just a way of coping with what happened I guess.

 

[King Chaos]

Whereas this is at the opposite end of the scale - human suffering is upsetting when it's about people I care about. Perhaps your comments about events in South-east Asia were callous, given that people did know people who suffered there, which upset them, but in essence you dismissed their care about the situation. Why then, do you feel upset when people dismiss yours?

I didn't dismiss their care about the situation. I questioned my own. My comments were not callous, and they came two and a half weeks after the event. I wouldn't have posted anything other than condolences if I'd have thought anyone here had been directly affected by the tsunami.

 

[Dark_Jester]

I didn't dismiss their care about the situation. I questioned my own. My comments were not callous, and they came two and a half weeks after the event. I wouldn't have posted anything other than condolences if I'd have thought anyone here had been directly affected by the tsunami.

I only said perhaps. More the fact you touched some nerves, and someone's just touched yours. Maybe perspective is the key.

 

[King Chaos]

@KC: First of all, Im truly sorry for what happened. Yeah, I know what you mean, Gavin, I am with you - its like in Life of Brian (pardon me for choosing this example, but Pythons have always helped me in hard times), when Judith comes to those leaders of PFJ and yells at them that Brain is being crucified and their only answer is "well, this calls for an immediate discussion!" or sthing like that. Like, wtf?, what do you want to discuss, its just happened, people were blown to pieces! I get you. BUT, I guess nobody here wants to discuss this just for the sake of it, it hasnt probably crossed your mind, but talking about it here is imo also showing that we care. I mean, what else can we do? This is not some bullshit left-wing salloon debate, its just a way of coping with what happened I guess.

there's different ways to talk about things though, and it was getting into a 2 sided thing, some saying "you had it coming" (in essence, and maybe I'll agree tomorrow) and some saying "this is horrid". It was quickly going to become an argument, and involve all kinds of politics yada yada yada. Other forums I'm on are managing to talk about it with out breaking down into this argument, and when it looks like it is going to, other people are stepping in, in some cases moderators, and saying "Back the fuck off for a second". So I agree, talk is good. But it doesn't have to be talk like this.

 

[Hitori]

at least it didn't happen during the live 8
do they know who did it? they could've done a lot more damage if they had wanted to

 

[King Chaos]

Statement claiming London attacks
The BBC has located an Islamist website that has published a 200-word statement issued by an organisation saying it carried out the London bombings.

The organisation calls itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda [literally the base] of Jihad Organisation in Europe.

The group not previously been heard of. The website has previously carried statements purporting to be from al-Qaeda. It is not possible to verify such claims published on the web.

This is the full text of the statement.

In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and undaunted fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

Nation of Islam and Arab nation: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge against the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.

We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

God says: "You who believe: If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."

Like it says at the beinning, this doesn't verify anything... but I think it looks likely that it was these guys.
They have a pretty dumb name. An organisation is usually considered to be a similar thing to a group.... you have three words to choose to make your name catchy and memorable and they choose to baisically use synonym. And they're hardly keeping themselves secret by broadcasting their evil doings across the internet.

 

[Taliesin]

A dumb name? As long as the US are writing "Freedom" and "Peace" all over their banner while they bomb country after country, why cant they? Besides, the US kill about a hundred times as many people as they do

I dont feel like writing long replies anymore, it's just too stupid and frustrating. Tal out

 

[King Chaos]

A dumb name? As long as the US are writing "Freedom" and "Peace" all over their banner while they bomb country after country, why cant they?

They arn't writing freedom and peace... they are writing "Secret Organisation Group". It is dumb, because of the word choice. And Americans are dumb too. So what's your point?

 

[Thanatos]

I think these bombings are a horrendous thing, as is anything that involves the killing or harming of innocent people, and I feel for the victims and their relatives.

Americans are dumb too.

well if americans are dumb, what does that make britts, who let themselves be shephered into war by americans?

@KC: I respect you and all, but I don't agree with some of your opinions/points of view

 

[Taliesin]

I think I owe you an apology KC I guess I was so upset by a similar debate on the CoB board that I didnt read your statements attentively enough.
The racist shit I read there was unbelievable.. I guess I didnt calm down enough

 

[King Chaos]

well if americans are dumb, what does that make britts, who let themselves be shephered into war by americans?

I hope in your eyes it makes us look even dumber.

@KC: I respect you and all, but I don't agree with some of your opinions/points of view

I wouldn't want it any other way. Well I'm glad this is still a forum .

I think I owe you an apology KC I guess I was so upset by a similar debate on the CoB board that I didnt read your statements attentively enough.
The racist shit I read there was unbelievable.. I guess I didnt calm down enough

I understand. I spent alot of time today getting really angry at people who thought the answer was to go and nuke everything in retaliation. But I approached them the same way I approached this. It's a tradgedy. And I dont think revenge should be on peoples mind at this very moment. Save it for tomorrow. Like wise I don't think people should be trying to tell the civilians of the UK, who might I add probably oppose the things going down in Iraq, that they deserved this in anyway, and that this is tit for tat. Even if you can validate that, it's just wasn't the time to stick it in my face. Either way I'm calm now, and I'm sorry for telling people to fuck off.

Nf: Im trying to write and my head's spinning... and I'm writing the most confusing story ever. It's crap . I keep forgetting how it's structured. I have this mad idea, and it's coming together slowly but surely. Hopefully it'll disturb people more than my last attempt at a shocking short and in a better more meaningful way (not just gore)... anyway it's totally surreal, and its making my head really hurt. Listening to powermetal is not helping

 

[Schwedentod]

2 sentences:

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." (Josef Stalin actually said this)

"Terrorism is the war of the poor." (don't know who said this)

 

[marduk1507]

And now, like what? Do you agree with these quotes or what was your point anyway? I dont want to be offensive, but these types of contributions are senseless. And the latter one is bullshit - terrorism is definitely NOT the war of the poor. The poor have other things to worry about imo. Terrorism is just a really cruel way of doing politics.

 

[Schwedentod]

I didn't want to contribute to the discussion, I don't know what to say.

I totally agree with Stalin in these words. It seems to be part of human nature that a single death of someone they know (or a famous person) is a big tragedy giving much to talk for days/ weeks. But hearing of 5, 10, 50 new dead bodies in iraq is somehow only another statistic saying that there will be no peace in near future...

I don't know if I agree with the second statement, there's a true part in it but only if talking about the "old" terrorism. Today, it's a religious war, presented under the banner of terrorism. Terrorism is maybe the war of minorities without own army... ?!? ... ?!? Don't know, just a thought.

Now, by looking at my last post again, you're right, it looks really pointless. So, this may be an addition.

 

[YaYo]

NF: Hoping that if i work hard enough over the next couple of days that i'll be able to finally have some time off work for once. I'm so damn tired

 

[marduk1507]

Hey YaYo, dont live for working, work for a living!